Moi Dix Mois on 30/10/2008 at 03:22
Eh... It's not like anybody ever did anything different with their stat points in D2 anyway. Nothing in Magic, the bare-minimum is Strength and alternating 3 and 2 in Vitality and Dexterity.
If you didn't follow this rule you were inarguably crippling your character - and that was something else that was bad about D2; if your character's ability and skill advancement wasn't meticulously planned and researched you could forget about playing in Hell difficulty.
That game was just badly designed across the board.
Thirith on 30/10/2008 at 12:53
Quote Posted by Moi Dix Mois
That game was just badly designed across the board.
So how do you explain the amazing success (with critics and with players) of this badly designed game?
Chimpy Chompy on 30/10/2008 at 13:06
Well I imagine a lot of players might not have made it to Hell difficulty? I mean i was apparently playing with messed-up stats all along and i still did ok on Normal. Which was as far as i ever played.
So anyway why is Energy not needed at all? (just in case i ever revisit the game) Do you just constantly chug potions to make up for the smaller mana pool?
Thirith on 30/10/2008 at 13:24
Quote Posted by Chimpy Chompy
Well I imagine a lot of players might not have made it to Hell difficulty? I mean i was apparently playing with messed-up stats all along and i still did ok on Normal. Which was as far as i ever played.
That's very well possible and sounds like a valid criticism. I'd think, though, that a game that is "badly designed across the board" would not be as successful for as long a time as
Diablo 2. A badly designed game may be very successful at release but it wouldn't have the same longevity and the same addictive quality. By and large game design for a broad audience is something that Blizzard would seem to do amazingly well.
Koki on 30/10/2008 at 16:25
Quote Posted by Chimpy Chompy
So anyway why is Energy not needed at all? (just in case i ever revisit the game) Do you just constantly chug potions to make up for the smaller mana pool?
At Normal, which no one treats seriously, that's pretty much it. Later on, since your mana pool increases every time you level up and between +mana/kill and +% mana steal items it's just not needed.
Moi Dix Mois on 31/10/2008 at 01:12
What makes D2 badly designed? Well let's see... an insufficient Skill usage system which required constant skill-switching to be of any use (the amount of time spent switching between Zeal and Frost on my Paladin must have given me RSI and it's no different for any other class. The fact that many skills persist for a few seconds even after selection shows Blizzard's intent to encourage players to combine their skills, but they didn't impliment a convenient system for it at all).
The stamina/sprinting system actively works against co-operative play by ensuring that no two players can even move at the same speed - particularly if one of them is an Assassin.
I could rant for hours about the ridiculous nature of the loot chest, which had no particularly valid reason for being so absurdly limited when all it did was force players to make three more characters to act as mules.
Don't even get me started on the save system. Particularly in single-player.
And the reason for D2 being so popular? It's the very definition of a casual game. I don't mean that in a derogatory sense, but it requires little thought or effort to actually play.
All the effort that's required is going into things like character planning - and you don't even need to think about that because there are more than a couple of sites out there which are dedicated to hosting well researched and mathematically perfected guides for D2 characters.
Koki on 31/10/2008 at 06:59
Quote Posted by "Moi Dix Mois"
insufficient Skill usage system which required constant skill-switching to be of any use (the amount of time spent switching between Zeal and Frost on my Paladin must have given me RSI and it's no different for any other class. The fact that many skills persist for a few seconds even after selection shows Blizzard's intent to encourage players to combine their skills, but they didn't impliment a convenient system for it at all).
Uh, aura switching was a bug and removed. Don't blame Blizzard if you take a "hax" build.
And quite the contrary, two skills(One as a normal attack and other as RMB) is enough in majority of the builds. Usually you don't need to switch unless you encounter a hard nut like Immune.
Quote:
The stamina/sprinting system actively works against co-operative play by ensuring that no two players can even move at the same speed - particularly if one of them is an Assassin.
After level 20 or so you can generally forget stamina even exists, plus I don't know what are you doing which makes you run so far. Shouldn't you be fighting baddies instead?
Quote:
I could rant for hours about the ridiculous nature of the loot chest, which had no particularly valid reason for being so absurdly limited when all it did was force players to make three more characters to act as mules.
Agreed, though do note that it's good you have it at all - There was none of that in Diablo(And in most other action RPGs).
Quote:
Don't even get me started on the save system. Particularly in single-player.
Save system had to be checkpoint-based because D2 was very MP-oriented and it's "impossible" to do normal saves in MP.
Quote:
And the reason for D2 being so popular? It's the very definition of a casual game. I don't mean that in a derogatory sense, but it requires little thought or effort to actually play.
Ey man, making a separate character just to do NM Meph runs in under a minute is pretty hardcore.
The fact is that D2 shares many common things with MMORPGs. And I know most of TTLG won't believe me, but yes there are people who find owning mobs, and pimping out their char(With XP and loot) fun.
van HellSing on 31/10/2008 at 07:37
Quote Posted by Thirith
So how do you explain the amazing success (with critics and with players) of this badly designed game?
halol
Moi Dix Mois on 31/10/2008 at 10:15
Quote Posted by Koki
Uh, aura switching was a bug and removed. Don't blame Blizzard if you take a "hax" build.
And quite the contrary, two skills(One as a normal attack and other as RMB) is enough in majority of the builds. Usually you don't need to switch unless you encounter a hard nut like Immune.
Welcome to Hell; natural habitat of the dual-immune.
Is using Frost and Zeal considered aura-switching nowadays? I've not played since february/march but switching between the Frost Aura to use the Zeal attack was never patched out while I played.
Quote:
After level 20 or so you can generally forget stamina even exists, plus I don't know what are you doing which makes you run so far. Shouldn't you be fighting baddies instead?
I'd love to be fighting baddies, except that damn assassin got them all by getting there first.
One could argue that this is my fault for playing with pubbies, but that's not an excuse - any multiplayer game in which you need to play with only your friends because other players can significantly impact your ability to play has design issues.
Many games are succeptible in some way to abuse, obviously, but few to the extent of the Diablo games.
Quote:
Agreed, though do note that it's good you have it at all - There was none of that in Diablo(And in most other action RPGs).
Diablo had a much smaller amount of total loot and a much more linear loot progression than D2 though.
I don't remember speaking to any other Warrior characters who didn't use Whale Plate and Zodiac rings (+20 to all stats? It's been a few years) - it was quite clear when you'd hit the ceiling, loot-wise in D1.
In D2 the variety is immense, and only added to by the runes and gems.
I love the system, it's great, but there's just not enough space to store things. The amount of times I've had to entirely fill my chest, cube and even my secondary weapon slots....
Quote:
Save system had to be checkpoint-based because D2 was very MP-oriented and it's "impossible" to do normal saves in MP.
Not
impossible.
This is a rather roundabout experience, but I used to have a copy of Diablo on the PSone, which could save your entire quest progress, level structure and even items which had been droped on the ground onto that dinky little 1MB memory card.
Now *obviously* its not possible in multiplayer, but; believe it or not some people did play the Diablo games for the story and actively enjoy the sp game.
Some of my longest-lived characters were in sp, since Blizzard couldn't delete them if I took a break from the game.
Quote:
Ey man, making a separate character just to do NM Meph runs in under a minute is pretty hardcore.
The fact is that D2 shares many common things with MMORPGs. And I know most of TTLG won't believe me, but yes there are people who find owning mobs, and pimping out their char(With XP and loot) fun.
I enjoy these things too, and I enjoyed D2 while I played it. But there are so many times while I was playing where I'd look at a feature and think "why did they do this?" that a good (though small) percentage of my play time was filled with frustration.
I know I'm in the minority, but I still think D1 is the superior game in the series. I think it did everything from its gameplay right down to its atmosphere better than D2. It may have had less loot and levels, and more overlap in its characters, but everything it did was so much better implemented.
Might go reinstall it actually...
Thirith on 31/10/2008 at 10:19
Quote Posted by van HellSing
halol
Does
Halo have the same longevity as
Diablo 2? I'm honestly asking this - I don't know.
Also, I could imagine that in terms of XBOX shooters,
Halo is pretty good. But I've only played the PC demo, which did more or less nothing for me.
