Mucca on 8/8/2002 at 08:19
Nice try PowerCrazy, I almost thought you were serious for a while, but then it struck me that nobody could be that stupid, unless they're looking for a fight. And I should let you know, there's a couple of 'fountain shams' here so if your 'startin'...
armcommander on 8/8/2002 at 15:03
Quote:
Originally posted by PowerCrazy Powercrazy said the Us is a big-ass oil baron basically.Perhaps this picture will help you get an idea of what the Bush adminstration thinks of the middle-east.
Inline Image:
http://www.smirkingchimp.com/images/topics/forpol.jpgHVD on 8/8/2002 at 17:31
"This is the way the world ends, Not with a bang but a wimper."
Where is that from?
PowerCrazy on 9/8/2002 at 07:12
Yes i think that picture sums it up quite nicely. But what do you mean Mucca? Looking for a fight? I was on a rant there BUT I do live in the US, and i'm I recently read the entire homeland security act, and i'm quite confident the War on Terror is an excuse to further our (the us) economic interests, particularly oil. Now if you think otherwise, please, elaborate.
The quote is from a Poem called "The Hollowmen" its by T.S. Eliot. Also the popular quote "April is the cruelest month" is from that person, in "The Wasteland".
I will admit in my previous post, i WAS a little narrowminded, BUT the idea remains. Oil is big on the U.S. agenda.
Mucca on 9/8/2002 at 07:41
Sorry for the misunderstanding PowerCrazy, I was talking about the bit where you 'explained' the US' empire status, in particular the referance to Europe as being 'conquered' by the US. Now in case you weren't aware, the US has not set up any puppet governments in Europe, and in fact gets some of its strongest criticism and opposition from the continent. Maybe you could argue the case that the US has conquered Europe on an economic level, but even this would be a severly flawed arguement and would only hold partly true for a few countries in Europe, Ireland comes to mind, but even then, Ireland is becoming more and more integrated into the EU economically, and is becoming less dependant on the US for investment.
Also, what I meant originally in saying that no one would be stupid enough to talk about 'conquering' another nation was not that the goal is unachievable, but that it is totally unacceptable, and harps back to 1940's Germany and their quest for 'Lebensraum'.
PowerCrazy on 9/8/2002 at 08:16
No obviously Europe isn't a "puppet government" of the US. But they are VERY dependent on the US for a trading partner, as is the US dependent on Europe. But in the world events, Britain, France, Germany, others from europe, will ally with the US. Despite all the criticsm, and lack of support for the US in Europe, NATO still exists, and Europe is indebted to the US for its actions during WW2, and the Cold War. I agree with you whole-heartedly, but if the shit ever hits the fan, i promise you Europe and the US would be the closest of allies.
The conquering thing is true. In this day and age a country does not "conquer" nations in the traditional sense. It gets a trading partner, and another vote in the UN. Thats why the US has a global presence. The US has troops in Taiwan. Thats on the otherside of the world. Coincedentally, China, the US's biggest threat is only a stone's throw away? hmm. Interesting. And Germany after WW2 is essentially a "conquered" nation, just like Japan is. Hence, America IS an Empire.
Mucca on 9/8/2002 at 09:40
Hmmm, I dont want to be disrespectful or aggressive, but a lot of what your saying is garbage. Germany, likewise Japan, is not a 'conquered' nation today, they have their own constitutions and democratically elected governments.
If the shit hits the fan, I can promise YOU, Europeans would not be happy if their leaders blindly supported the US. It would have to a warranted retort. If theres one thing Europeans dont like, its leaders who brown-nose to the US. Tony Blair is getting a bit of slack for being Bushs lapdog. Gerhard Schröder is looking to support the US at the mo' but thats largely due to the election, and he is looking to win support from a group with whom he doesnt have the upperhand. The youth wont like him for it, but they hate the other guy even more.
Also on a political level, if Europe belives its right, and has the support of its citizens, then its not afraid to stand up to the US. For example the Kyoto treaty debacle. Military situations are different, because of (A)NATO and (B)any in-fighting creates weakness.
On an econmic level, the US has no more conquered Europe than Europe has conquered the US. Yes the US is the worlds biggest economy, but in the last ten years, European firms, Germans in particular, have been investing heavily in the US; Daimler-Chrysler and Bertelesmann come to mind. And before that Japan were major investors. The world economies are inextricably linked to each other, if one goes down they are all effected.
Im also puzzled as to why you see other countries as threats. Why should they want to attack you? Have ye done something to them? Its a very paranoid attitude to see another country as a threat just because they are big, and could challenge your supremacy.
rachel on 9/8/2002 at 12:56
Quote:
Originally posted by Mucca
On an econmic level, the US has no more conquered Europe than Europe has conquered the US. Yes the US is the worlds biggest economy, but in the last ten years, European firms, Germans in particular, have been investing heavily in the US; Daimler-Chrysler and Bertelesmann come to mind. Exactly. I remember reading somewhere that if Europe managed to have the same unity in politics as it has in economy, it would definitely be stronger that the US. Economicaly speaking, the US already are "inferior" to Europe...
Here's an (
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51504&highlight=americans+rest+of+the+world) interesting thread about the "US vs World" relationship...:)
Junkie Doodle on 9/8/2002 at 18:48
The thread-opener mentions antiwar.com, a place where many of my rants against Bush have found a way to brighten the days of governement tracers.
The US is on the way to fascism, no doubt about it, but fortunately the crackheads in charge are far too delusional to actually pull it off. Example. Ashcroft's TIPS program, is off to a promising start. Not the FBI picks up the calls of aspiring spying neighbors, but the TV show America's Most Wanted...
Here's a TIP: do a Google search for "Prescot Bush Nazi".
To the tune of $50 million dollars, baby. How much would that be today?
PowerCrazy on 10/8/2002 at 08:08
If you read the full surrender that the Axis powers, Japan and Germany, they relenquished ALL control to the Allied forces. They were a conquered nation. now the US doesn't want another state, they want votes. Votes in the UN. The biggest doesn't rule in the UN, all countries are equal, except Russia who has three votes... Now if you look at teh records of the last major votes in the UN, guess who almost ALWAYS falls in line with the US, Japan, Britain, Germany, France. more than a comfortabel margin to counteract Russias three votes. Especially ocnsidering there are three permenant seats in the UN, US, Russia, and Britain. THen two other countries are selected by some process that i'm not sure of, and they become Major voters for a period of time. Read the UN charter for full detials. So if you ask me there seems to be a good amount of unity there. No great satan = US.
Also. Germany has a US Airbase (don't remeber the name) that has more planes, and troops then Germany has in its enitre military. hmm soudns pretty conquered to me. Same with Japan. The US has a bigger presecne in Japan then Japan does in itself. But, they are not being occupied. THey are independent soverign nations that happen to take a special interest in what the US does. But regardless they are a tool of the US in world affairs. Thats what i mean by conquered.
It is very late and i've not slept in over 24hours... I prolly should. Also i don't remember the original purpose of this discussion... But I think it did stem from a Rant that i made under similar conditions... in-any-case I'm not claim the US is an "Invisible Hand" that guids world politics towards its own goals. It is a very real, tangible, presence that the leaders of the world in Europe, in particular accept as the way it is. THey know that they can "dissent" anytime they want, BUT economic (as well as personal) interests take precedence.
And to reiterate what my previous rant lead to. this "War on Terror" Is a convient excuse for the US to further its own economic interests, particularly in OIL. And also become a police state, my question is
"Why does the US want to become a Police state?"
Any suggestions? Comments? Anything?
P.S. Before talking about how such and such country isn't "conquered" make sure you understand my definition of the word. Trading Partner, and a reliable vote in the UN.
