Pyrian on 1/2/2017 at 18:20
So what? They could easily gloss over or retcon it; they always have before. Oh, the act didn't pass? Well, it passed next week. Oh, the act passed? It got repealed. Or, maybe the act passed, but we're just not going to reference it next game. It's only a big fork if they want it to be.
heywood on 1/2/2017 at 18:30
Sure they could. But if you had already written the full story line, and then decided to break it in two parts, why would you insert a false fork into the middle of it? It seems more logical to me that they had only written as far as the ending of Mankind Divided.
I'm just skeptical of the theory that Eidos Montreal had a bigger story & bigger game that Square Enix made them chop in two.
froghawk on 1/2/2017 at 21:30
Well that theory mainly comes from the Jim Sterling video claiming 'inside sources' told him they were simultaneously working on the 2nd and 3rd game. How reliable is that - who knows?
But for it to be a proper DX game, it HAS to have an ending fork. They could have easily put that in despite knowing exactly where the next one was going.
And on the flipside, how do you explain the fact that probably half of the side quests have unresolved endings? It makes sense for them to leave lots of questions unanswered in the main story, but the side quests?
Anyway, I'm not convinced it's fair to blame EM for any of this. The blame lies squarely on Squenix.
That said, while I really did enjoy MD a lot, I would have probably preferred the Obsidian game. MD was more of HR with much improved level design, but a new protagonist and different team probably would have made it feel more in line with the DX spirit.
TannisRoot on 3/2/2017 at 19:42
I was personally didn't buy it because I found the "Augs Lives Matters" theme a turn off. Drawing inspiration from modern events is one thing, but it seemed more like a hijacking of a cultural zeitgeist in the hopes of driving sales rather than an exploration of our society and culture through the lens of sci-fi. As noted above, it's been done before and it really didn't seem like MD was pioneering any new territory with it. Not to mention, a story of racism through a eyes of a superhuman white male lead is also probably not the best choice to reinforce themes here.
That said, I played DX1 for the first time last summer at the urging of members on this forum and I found the story both fascinating and eerily resonant with current events today, more so than when it came out. To ignore or subdue those themes seems either like a deliberate omission or the writers miopic fixation on a pet plot point at the expense of greater range of topics that form the bedrock of the series: surveillance and the power of technology, transhumanism, the undermining and usurping of world governments by shadowy interest groups, manipulation of the media, artificial intelligence, the consequences of genetic engineering - all extremely fascinating and rife for exploration. More importantly for EM's bottom line, these topics are still basically untouched fertile ground that no other series is touching upon in depth.
While prejudice against augs is certainly interesting, it just doesn't warrant enough interest for me to play an entire game ruminating over it like a high school English teacher in the throes of a semester filled thresher of To Kill a Mockingbird.
froghawk on 4/2/2017 at 02:34
I very much agree with your first paragraph - and they have the gall to claim that they started using the term in game before BLM became a real movement? Yeah right.
As for the rest, that's again just how I felt about HR. Deus Ex had a ton of themes going on in its plot, and the new games have been relentlessly focusing on the transhuman element. There were virtually no mechanical augs in the original Deus Ex - do we even meet more than two? And yet we're supposed that the entire world was pretty much defined around them prior to that game?
Bucky Seifert on 5/2/2017 at 02:13
This really does piss me off. Mankind Divided had the potential to be an amazing game, but what seems like corporate intervention undercut that potential. The gameplay was really good but the story was forced to be gutted in favor of a side mode that's merely alright, and then was made into a F2P mode. Now both Square and the fans are paying the price for their terrible decisions.
This has put them on my shitlist and the only thing that might take them off is if they bring Final Fantasy XV to PC and make it an amazing port.
chk772 on 7/2/2017 at 11:00
Frankly, i don't think i even care much. The modern Deus Ex games were catered rather to nowadays crowd of gamers, and that's unlikely to change in the future, it rather gets worse. So, the only viable option for me would be a fan made project, with people who know what they're doing, and who try to recreate the vibe of the first Deus Ex. Sort of like The Dark Mod, just with a strong "official" campaign. I'm not sure if that will ever happen, and it surely will take years and years, so, not holding my breath here. In the meantime, i just enjoy Deus Ex Revision, and, partly, Human Revolution, which really had its moments. Not really waiting for anything else, won't happen anywhere soon anyway.
Edit: Oh, and i'll surely check out DX Invisible War, with the visible upgrade soon. I never played that game through, but, i remember having quite some fun with it some time ago. It has its flaws, yes, but, surely had its moments too.
heywood on 7/2/2017 at 15:18
Quote Posted by TannisRoot
That said, I played DX1 for the first time last summer at the urging of members on this forum and I found the story both fascinating and eerily resonant with current events today, more so than when it came out. To ignore or subdue those themes seems either like a deliberate omission or the writers miopic fixation on a pet plot point at the expense of greater range of topics that form the bedrock of the series: surveillance and the power of technology, transhumanism, the undermining and usurping of world governments by shadowy interest groups, manipulation of the media, artificial intelligence, the consequences of genetic engineering - all extremely fascinating and rife for exploration. More importantly for EM's bottom line, these topics are still basically untouched fertile ground that no other series is touching upon in depth.
I give Human Revolution some credit for at least trying to touch on most of those topics, as well as geoengineering, corporatization of the military and militarization of law enforcement, and providing some back story on the origins of augmentation and motivations for it. It didn't succeed everywhere. The Hyron project in particular seemed like a promising concept but turned out to be a big letdown. But there was enough going on in HR to keep me engaged with the story and reading everything.
Quote:
While prejudice against augs is certainly interesting, it just doesn't warrant enough interest for me to play an entire game ruminating over it like a high school English teacher in the throes of a semester filled thresher of To Kill a Mockingbird.
Agreed. It makes me wonder what happened to the writers who worked on Human Revolution.
Maxrebo6 on 8/2/2017 at 05:49
I think the writers were mostly the same and at the end of the Mankind Divided was a still a pretty damn good game with story that still better than a lot of its contemporary's.I think what really hurt DX:MD was whoever made the decision to cut the game in half in order push for a sequel so it could be a trilogy.But it should have been a trilogy but its gonna take even longer no that the series on hold and when they restart on work on the third in the Adam Jensen/Rise of MJ12 Trilogy its now gonna contain what should have been the and final act of Mankind Divided.This was further worsened by them cutting additional content out of the game in order for it be sold as DLC.Add on top the that the anger over their original pre order bonus system and micro transactions. The DLC should have been in the game at release,it should have been longer and included a real third act.Then for DLC make something that would lead to the events of the sequel.
I think the whole focusing on the prejudice against Augs in the form of the Human Restoration Act and Mechanical Apartheid,felt like a logical continuation after the Aug Incident.They also where influenced in this decision by world events.So people think that prejudice and racism are not really problems anymore at least in the Western World.But events especially in US with Police Violence against minorities and the rise of Black Lives Matter and ever growing racial divide and tension in the US but also the rest of the Western World.One just has to look at the rise in stature and popularity of Nationalist and Fascist Political candidates in the Western World.The Mechanical Apartheid was meant to be an metaphor for real world prejudice faced by people of different races,nationalities,ethnicity's,religions,genders/identity,and sexual orientation around the world.With Augs being the catch all,the point being to give the player even the smallest taste of what this like especially to those unlikely to experience this ever in the real world.
The writers at Eidos Montreal clearly follow a certain position on these issues,whether you agree with it or not doesn't matter since it does fall in line with a lot of the themes and beliefs of commonly recognized Cyberpunk.Whether one likes or not by Cyberpunk by its very nature and Deus Ex is no exception deals very heavily with Social,Political,Philosophical,Theological matters,and like hence the punk portion most of the stances it tends to take if it doesn't go with the decide for yourself route in regards to its questions are usually not of a right wing nature.Since the punk subculture and cyberpunk especially tends to lean heavily to Anarchist leanings.The dystopia,of high poverty,crime and mega corporations are almost never implied to be positives.
So I think they always intended for that to play apart in the story and world of DX:MD but decided to put heavier focus as these issue jumped again to the forefront of discussion in regards to international issues.The world is becoming more cyberpunk with every passing day.They maybe fun places to read about or run around in a video game but for the vast majority its not a nice place to live.The world as depicted in a majority of cyberpunk fiction was never a guide on how to run the world,but well its what's happened.
The point being this would have never happened if they had never pulled that preorder bullshit,cut down the game in order to put it in the sequel(Pulling a Hobbit)and then sell what remained as DLC,Microtransactions,not explaining Breach as a free to play addition to the game and not something else.Without this happening,I think that plus with getting the word out about the game a little better,and the none of this would have happened.I don't know who made these decisions someone from Square or EM,I am leaning towards Square cause this smells like them,really shot the series in the foot,trying to squeeze more money out of gamers.Will these companies learn that there is a limit to the amount of BS that consumers but especially Gamers will put up with.
Thief 2014 suffered the same fate thought in that case it was also hampered by poor design and story decisions. Even then the final product wasn't the worst thing ever and it was still playable,It was a good game just not a good Thief game.They really should have made the game as a love letter to fans of original games with maybe some QOL changes or other modern changes as long as they didn't sacrifice what made the originals great.It think with good advertising and the game would have been a bigger success even with modern gamers with no experience with the classic originals hell they could have maybe remade them for consoles so more people could taste of what the originals where all about.It would of affected those of us on the PC at all and would have built a wider fan base and great anticipation for the return of the series.But they decided to shoot themselves and the games chances in the foot.
I hope the hiatus isn't too long since the long development time between HR and MD then MD's short length,really didn't help.
froghawk on 8/2/2017 at 15:04
The writers were actually different between the two games. The only main positions that were the same were the director and composer. From Wikipedia:
HR:
Director: Jean-François Dugas
Producer: David Anfossi
Designer: François Lapikas
Programmers: Simon Hamelin, Julien Bouvrais
Artist: Jonathan Jacques-Belletête
Writer: Mary DeMarle
Composer: Michael McCann
MD:
Director: Jean-François Dugas
Producer: Olivier Proulx
Designers: Patrick Fortier, Richard Knight
Programmers: David Gallardo, Sébastien Michel
Artists: Martin Dubeau, Michael Lanoie
Writers: Jason Dozois, Steven Gallagher
Composers: Michael McCann, Sascha Dikiciyan