Deus Ex & Thief IPs + Eidos Montreal are about to be sold to Embracer Group

weylfar on 30/8/2022 at 06:08

I would generally prefer new story and new levels.

demagogue on 30/8/2022 at 07:36

Yes, but in that case what does the Thief brand even add?
If they do a new story and new levels, why not just make it a new IP altogether?

Actually I'd even say my first vote would be for a completely new game, just as completely new IP. The aesthetics of medieval urban noir is a cool concept for a game all by itself.

But the key question of this thread is could anything be done with the Thief IP in particular.

I mean one way is just keeping the world itself. E.g., Star Wars I think has already started, or at least started laying the groundwork for, this turn of telling stories by other people in the same universe that have nothing to do with Skywalkers or Solos or Siths.

But in that case, the universe is big and fleshed out enough they can do that. I don't know if the Thief world is fleshed out enough for that kind of thing.

Well I'll just say I'm not that interested in seeing Garrett rebooted a la Thief 4. And I can't see a sequal to the original trilogy. I could see a prequel now that I think about it, like his training as a young man before TDP even started though.

I could also imagine a story about someone in another faction, like a Hammerite or Mechanist or Keeper in their own story in Garrett's world but not really dealing with him. But the issue with that is I wonder if the gameplay could work.

So there are posssibilities I could imagine, but it'd be tricky to keep the gameplay, in contrast to something like Tomb Raider or Assassin's Creed where you can really recycle the gameplay ad infinitum.

And aside from those possibilities, I don't know how well they can even use the world.

Tomi on 30/8/2022 at 08:18

A remake of The Dark Project would be interesting, but they'd have to perform a miracle to find the perfect balance between the old and the new. Many game mechanics in TDP would need fixing (there's no point in the remake otherwise), but when you touch one part, it affects all the others as well. So, a few tweaks here and there will result in a completely different game anyway.

Rather than a faithful remake where they copy pretty much everything from level design to dialogue, I think it'd be far more interesting if the developers took more liberties with the game, and followed their own vision. Keep the main points of the story and the lore and the characters, but don't keep everything the same. Same goes for gameplay and level design - make sure that it remains a stealth game, but don't be afraid to change things up a bit. The Mafia remake from a couple of years ago is a fantastic example of how to pull off a remake.

Whatever they do, I think the reboot universe needs ditching. Not that it was terrible, it was just unnecessary and a bit weird. I don't find the world of the classic Thief that interesting either, but the factions were nice, and it would give the game some background. Having said that, I wouldn't mind if they simply started a whole new IP, but I understand that the Thief IP might still help the game sell a few more copies, so I'm cool with that. The story of Garrett is hopefully over though, but a Thief game does not need Garrett as a protagonist in my opinion. The game wouldn't need yet another epic storyline where the protagonist saves the world either, something much more simple would work a lot better.

Thirith on 30/8/2022 at 09:07

@Tomi: Out of interest, what would you say would need to be fixed in terms of the original Thief's game mechanics?

demagogue on 30/8/2022 at 11:09

I understood Tomi's point not to be that some mechanics needed to be fixed per se, but some mechanics should be changed to justify it as a new game, almost in a cosmetic sense, not necessarily better or worse but a different feel, maybe fitting today's zeitgeist better, with the Mafia remake as an example. Although that said, it'd be interesting to know what kind of possible examples you're thinking about.

Thirith on 30/8/2022 at 11:58

I think that things such as movement would have to be adapted to a modern engine. Physics are rudimentary in the Dark Engine, and in combination with more detailed maps you'd need some changes. In effect, you'd probably have something not unlike the idea of body awareness, except ideally it would be much better executed. (One thing I'd love to see is the more contextual movement from the Dishonored games, where you'd duck under a table rather than just bumping into it and that's that.)

Tomi on 30/8/2022 at 15:41

Quote Posted by Thirith

@Tomi: Out of interest, what would you say would need to be fixed in terms of the original Thief's game mechanics?

Quote Posted by demagogue

Dema got it right - if they're going to remake the game, I hope that it'll be more than the same old Thief with nice graphics. A remake can be faithful to the original even if it's not a near-exact replica. As for examples, it's been quite a few years since I last played classic Thief, but I always found the enemy AI a bit underwhelming and too predictable, so that's one area that certainly needs changing. The AI isn't very challenging once you figure out how it works, and the way how the guards react to certain events often results in frustration rather than fun gameplay. If the player's first reaction is to hit the quickload key when they get caught, then something's gone wrong at the game design department, but that's sadly how things work in just about every stealth game out there, isn't it? Let's face it, the melee combat in classic Thief is absolutely terrible, and escaping from the guards isn't much of a thrill either.

Getting caught is a crucial part of a stealth game, even if we all like to pretend that we're master thieves that are never seen, but if getting caught actually resulted in some fun gameplay, I think a lot of people might change their minds and get rid of that quickload habit. That alone would be a huge change to the game though.

EvaUnit02 on 30/8/2022 at 20:26

I remember prior to Human Revolution's release, people here were crying about the 3rd person cover system. I pointed out that it wasn't a big deal, since you could ya know, not use that particular mechanic.

Quote Posted by Tomi

AI is absolutely one of the few things that you could improve upon Thief 2. The fact of the matter is, a graphical remake leaving everything else the same would probably be for this best. Very few stealth games come even close to Thief 2, since usually either A. nerfed gameplay to appeal to a more broader audience, B. out of sheer laziness from devs to properly code AI whose awareness is governed by lighting + sound. Most games with stealth mechanics have AI solely reacts to line of sight.

Quote:

Getting caught is a crucial part of a stealth game, even if we all like to pretend that we're master thieves that are never seen, but if getting caught actually resulted in some fun gameplay, I think a lot of people might change their minds and get rid of that quickload habit. That alone would be a huge change to the game though.

If they were to "improve" combat, they'd have to go about it carefully. Go too far and it very much could become casualised nonsense. Going in "guns blazing" in a Stealth game, disregarding stealth should either not be an option at all, or be noticeably more difficult (eg like in Hitman).

Tomi on 30/8/2022 at 22:25

Quote Posted by EvaUnit02

Combat and non-stealthy gameplay has always been an option in classic Thief - why else would there be explosive arrows and mines and the sword obviously? The problem is that it's not a very fun option, and the AI is easily exploited, so that it's not particularly challenging either.

I sort of like it how it's done in Thi4f actually. Fighting more than two guards at once is tough as hell, so escaping is often your best option if you want to stay alive. Even that can be pretty difficult when the guards pursue you much more aggressively than in classic Thief. And then they conveniently "forget" you soon enough so that you can get on with your things. :D It's nowhere near perfect obviously (AI in a stealth game must be one of the most difficult things in game design!), and I must admit that I still hit the quickload key quite often when I get caught, but at least it's something.

Aja on 31/8/2022 at 04:50

I tell you what can be improved upon: sound. It's ridiculous that nearly 25 years on nothing sounds as good as Thief. Even Dishonored went the more visual-awareness route, like all stealth games since. I'd love to see more games with an emphasis on realistic, materials-based sound propagation with a greater dynamic range than what we're currently getting. Like, if you pick up a cup and throw it at a brick wall, it should sound loud! PS5 emphasizes its high-resolution 3D audio aspect, so maybe it could actually be marketable, although there haven't been many great examples of it yet.