Deus ex 2 - TTLG Forums

Chade on 12/10/2007 at 00:00

DaveW, don't let ZylonBane bait you ...

EDIT: As far as the templar ending goes, I always thought that it had some similarity to the "Destroy the whole system" ending in DX. It's something that might have been envisioned by Tong's big evil violent cousin (if he had one).

I never much liked it (after all: the templar's are as close to "baddies" as IW gets), but I can see some advantages to it. It's basically saying "these super-human technologies have only brought us trouble, let's get rid of them". Unfortunately, it also says "and let's do it in the most violent way imaginable".

ZylonBane on 12/10/2007 at 00:18

Quote Posted by Chade

DaveW, don't let ZylonBane bait you...

Hey, troll-baiting never goes out of fashion.

DaveW on 12/10/2007 at 00:30

Quote Posted by Chade

DaveW, don't let ZylonBane bait you ...

I wouldn't call it baiting since he has the same obnoxious attitude in all his posts. As someone over on OTP said;
You'd think being hated by the vocal majority of the TTLG forums would maybe teach you something, but apparently not.

As far as the Templar ending goes, I think that felt much more "thrown in" than the others - maybe because of the voiceover making it so different to the rest or something. Although it seems to essentially be the same as "destroy Area51" ending except it's far more final (as in, it tells you what happens to the world rather than leaving it open).

ZymeAddict on 12/10/2007 at 00:49

Quote Posted by heywood

Well, as you said, both games have Illuminati endings, merge with the AI endings, and chaos endings. The Illuminati endings are the only options remotely palatable to me, and then only because the alternatives are worse. Both of the merge with the AI endings scare the hell out of me. In DX, you create an omniscient dictator to rule the world. In IW, you create a tyranny of the majority, and lose privacy and individualism in the process. The chaos endings don't appeal to me either, although IW goes further by foreshadowing the future.

But what makes the IW endings so obviously worse, in my opinion, is that they both go much further, and are much more permanent (i.e. DX Illuminati shadow government vs. IW Illuminati world dictatorship, DX computerization of JC vs. IW computerization of the entire human race, etc).

ZylonBane on 12/10/2007 at 05:36

Quote Posted by DaveW

And as someone on TTLG said: DaveW is a mentally retarded Satan-worshipping pederast.

If someone says it, it must be true, right?

hayaku on 12/10/2007 at 08:00

Quote Posted by DaveW

blah blah incorrect "streamlined for console bullshit"

Bullshit? are you saying the game was not streamlined for the consoles? Good god just look at how small the levels were. Of all things this is one than surely even you cannot argue against.

Quote:

You cannot tell this from 7 minutes. You're entitled to hate the game, but by no means is your opinion educated, informed, or sound convincing at all. Your summarisation of the story demonstrates this.

Yeah well I never actually claimed to have written off the whole game in all its worthiness on these seven minutes alone, only written if off in my own mind. Take note, if I didn't think behind all my anger and outrage there actually lurked a pretty reasonable game there is no reason why I would have installed it 7 more times after the first. I *know* IW is a good game thats why I am STILL struggling with myself to give it a go, but unfortunately it also happens to be a BAD deus ex sequel, and given just how highly I hold that particular game in regard, for me the net sum in unfortunately a deal breaker.

Yes you are correct, I can not simply write off IW in 7 minutes of gameplay, or deduct that its a "bad game". What I can do is deduct that "this game will in no way live up to its predecessor or for that matter, my expectations".

Besides calling my opinion uneducated, while sounding nice in your argument, doesn't phase me at all. I have never played this game out of choice, or more accurately, out of uncontrollable revulsion. I would certainly like to play it, hell for the purposes of this argument, even LOVE to. I am just not sure its even worth my time looking for the install CD, as if history is any precedent, it will likley just serve to enrage me and cause me to play through the original a few more times just to calm down, something I hardly have time for since orange box came out.

But fingers crossed I will finally be able to play it next time, caus I too am kind a keen to see "what all the fuss is about" outside my initial findings, but lets just say I don't exactly have my hopes hight.

Dr. Dumb_lunatic on 12/10/2007 at 08:54

Quote Posted by ZylonBane

And as someone on TTLG said: DaveW is a mentally retarded Satan-worshipping pederast.

If someone says it, it must be true, right?

The extension you're trying to promote (incorrectly) here is "If I can quote someone saying something untrue, I prove that all quotes are untrue!"

Which is clearly nonsense. But hey.

Hayaku: a lot of the things people attribute to 'console streamlining' actually are engine limitations: IW had a pretty bad engine, all told, no matter what system you were running it on. Like the T:DS engine, only...worsened.

(now whether they were forced to use this engine to ensure console compatibility is another matter entirely)

Still: playing through a level "killing people exclusively with thrown items" is hilarious fun, and worth a go.

Don't look at it as a DX sequel, if that's what's bugging you. Think of it as a 'more cerebral than average FPS/RPG..with augs'. To be honest, it's not as if the game forces any previous history on you for quite some time: it does a reasonable job of establishing itself as a world in its own right before trying to shoehorn DX stuf in there.

It's definitely a cut above a LOT of similar era shooters, anyway.

DaveW on 12/10/2007 at 14:23

Quote Posted by hayaku

Bullshit? are you saying the game was not streamlined for the consoles? Good god just look at how small the levels were. Of all things this is one than surely even you cannot argue against.

Look at what I quoted again. Streamlining was not referring to levels, but the games mechanics (you directly said that things were changed to "appeal to the xbox crowd"), which was largely influenced by trying to get more casual gamers interested in the game - which, yes, included console players as well. Warren has said in several interviews he wanted to "open up" the game, so that more 'hardcore' players could enjoy all the little sub quests but casual players could just go around shooting and playing the main plotline.

As far as levels go, yes, that was clearly due to Xbox limitations. But that was not 'streamlining'.

ZylonBane on 12/10/2007 at 14:27

Quote Posted by Dr. Dumb_lunatic

The extension you're trying to promote (incorrectly) here is "If I can quote someone saying something untrue, I prove that all quotes are untrue!"

Which is clearly nonsense. But hey.

Actually, I was making the point that, "If I can quote someone saying something untrue, I prove that some quotes are untrue!"

Which is true.

Muzman on 12/10/2007 at 17:46

Quote Posted by ZymeAddict

It seems pretty clear to me which game has a better set of choices. :erg:

From that description they sound pretty darn similar actually, with the addition of a fairly obvious 'bad guys win' ending that's pretty lame in IW, only the IW ones make a lot more sense by games end and they make better use of the themes of political economy and technological progress. And I think you're mis-characterising the Helios ending in IW completely. That's the ultimate flow on from Morpheus' little speal in DX; the creation of an earthy god to be aware of all individual affairs and to enable individuals to understand larger issues and how they affect other individuals more effectively, while god balances the lot. That's the flaw in JC just being just a dominating supercomputer at the end of the first, he's got no real awareness of the populace, and, whatever anyone thinks of the 'combo ending' being used as the bsis for IW, it makes sense that he would have figured this out and realised there needed to be another step. JC and co explain this fairly clearly (althought they could do better), it's just a matter (as with everything in the game) of whether you believe their version or that of their enemies. The writer is pulling some little trick about faith in this I'm sure, as trust and mistrust is such a heavy factor in IWs story. It's there but it doesn't come across all that well.