Dr. Dumb_lunatic on 10/10/2007 at 10:15
Quote Posted by hayaku
Stuff
But by playing...what: 7 minutes of the game, you miss out on basically ALL the other content. You barely even get into a fight in the first 8 minutes: you'd have to skip through all the conversations just to have enough time left to shoot ONE bad guy.
You don't get to roam around seattle, try out the new weapons, bet on greasels, possess robots, explore forgotten antarctic research bases...
You don't even get to kill people with coffee cups, and that's worth buying the game for
alone.
And you'd miss out on the chance to kill Tracer Tong!
A lot of your other complaints are just knee-jerk things clearly based on only playing 5-7 minutes of the game :tsktsk: :
Terrorist! Z0MG! At least in DX they weren't tied to real world events, and you ended up joining them! ...well, in IW you can also join them (several flavours of them, actually), and no, they're about as far removed from real world issues as they were in DX. You can also NOT join them, which is a cut above the DX forced-choice. Admittedly you can flit around like a regular faction-whore without any real consequences (a major fault of IWs), but the option is at least
there.
And judging a game by the box cover is a bit silly: box covers vary enormously from region to region, country to country, edition to edition. Actual gameplay tends to vary far less.
So yes, while all of your judgements are certainly
achievable with only a 7 minute play, they're correspondingly ill-informed, and incomplete.
Seriously, if you want IW to be AS GOOD OR BETTER than DX, judged solely on DX-favouring criteria, then you're going to be disappointed. If you want a more modern FPS/RPG hybrid which is a considerable cut above a lot of the other stuff out there (or at least, was at the time), it fits the bill nicely.
You're still entirely entitled to hate it, of course: but it would just sound more convincing if your hatred was based on experience rather than initial impressions.
Chade on 10/10/2007 at 10:35
Hrmm, well, I love DX:IW ... some days more the DX, some days not quite as much. Both games have different things that I love about them.
I'm more then happy to admit that a lot of things about DX:IW sucks, though. I was able to see past those things into the best gaming experience I've had. I would understand if that doesn't happen for you, though. But please at least try. You will probably never enjoy it as much as me, but you might get more out of it then you expect from, say, the first hour or so.
BTW, it's really worth your while downloading the patches and the DX:IW texture pack. It only replaces the icing on the cake, to be sure, but the icing on the vanilla game is kinda bitter, so it makes a big difference.
ZylonBane on 10/10/2007 at 20:25
Quote Posted by DaveW
Wow, that's what I call an educated guess. Making assumptions based on a few seconds of walking through corridors that actually suggests
nothing at all of the gameplay. I stand by what I said - you are in no position to pass judgement of a game you've barely played.
The quality of the first few minutes of IW are, in fact, representative of the entire game. You have the intrusive HUD interface, the bug-eyed character models, the dull washed-out textures, the cramped level design, the tiny maps, and the awful writing that typify the entire experience.
heywood on 10/10/2007 at 22:04
Quote Posted by ZymeAddict
Yeah, but that differs from Deus Ex, because in that game the three endings were much more sensible and palatable to me. They each had upsides and downsides and really made you think about the choice.
With IW it was like having to choose between electing Hitler or Stalin for president. There wasn't really any clear upside to any of them and they all left you feeling rather let down.
From a conceptual/philosophical point of view, the DX endings were almost as unpalatable to me as the IW endings. The difference is that DX ends with a good last level (A51) while IW ends with the worst level in the game.
Edit: One more thing:
Quote Posted by hayaku
Just a few minutes into IW I couldn't help get the feeling that the whole thing just felt cheesy, especially in regard to the whole "lets get the terrorists" theme that to be honest felt like a real capitalization on the current political climate in America and the rest of the world at the time. Yes sure DX had terrorists too, but was made and designed totally independent of certain events, and they ended up being who you work for anyway. Just look at the IW cover, "Deus Ex: Invisible War, the future war on terror". War on Terror? This term was practically coined in modern vocab by the Bush Admin i 01'. Video games in my opinion should
NOT look at flash issues for inspiration or marketing push like this, it says very little about the quality and fiber of the game itself, especially when said game has such prestigious "high brow" roots as IW clearly did.
I suggest you play the game before commenting on it's story. It's not what you think.
Papy on 11/10/2007 at 05:03
Ok... I guess I must say it.
I agree with... with Da... with Da... Wi...
No. I'm sorry. I just can't say it. It's just too hard to conceptualize a universe where I agree with... Da...
No, really, I can't.
ZymeAddict on 11/10/2007 at 05:40
Quote Posted by heywood
From a conceptual/philosophical point of view, the DX endings were almost as unpalatable to me as the IW endings. The difference is that DX ends with a good last level (A51) while IW ends with the worst level in the game.
Actually, I thought the ending level to IW was superior to Area 51. The later was overly confusing and frustrating for me the first time through (for instance, I didn't at first grasp the concept of closing off the UC spawning stations so killing I was faced with an infinite amount of enemies). Also, I liked how with IW's ending the main characters were now all legitimate targets for you for the first time.
I don't really see how you can say the DX endings were nearly as bad as those in IW. Here's how they looked to me:
DX endings -1. Join the Illuminati and return Earth to the status quo from our present time (supposedly, if you are a conspiracy nut ;) ).
Upside: There is a semblance of personal freedom, equality, etc, like we have now.
Downside: We're still controlled by a bunch of (probably corruptible) shadowy weirdos behind the scenes and most people still don't know the truth. Also, privacy and the like are largely illusionary.
2. Merge with the A.I. and become dictator of the world
Upside: All the current problems associated with governance will cease. No more wars, famines, etc, as every administrative issue on earth will be calculated out to work perfectly.
Downside: Loss of self determination, personal freedom. Also, JC looses part of his personal identity.
3. Destroy the whole system
Upside: All problems associated with choices 1 and 2 are now moot, i.e. no more Illuminati types trying to control stuff, no more loss of personal freedoms.
Downside: Chaos (at least temporary), all the usual human problems (wars, etc) are back and probably here to stay.
IW endings -1. Join with the Illuminati crowd (similar to the original Illumi ending, only worse)
Upside: Continued prosperity, security, yadda, yadda
Downside: Outright dictatorship as opposed to the shadow government before. Loss of personal freedoms, etc, on bigger, more outright scale.
2. Join with the Templars
Upside: Can't really see one, except for maybe keeping the Omar from taking over I guess.
Downside: This one's rather too obvious to even bother with
3. Join with JC and the boys
Upside: "Perfect democracy". With the world hive mind everyone has an equal say in every aspect of life, regardless of any other factors. All "bad" aspects of humanity are now rendered moot.
Downside: Complete loss of personal freedom, identity (soul), privacy, etc, etc. All the unique and good aspect about humanity are likely lost or irrevocably damaged. This is THE most nightmarish scenario in my opinion.
4. Nuke everything
Upside: All the other bad shit is nuked
Downside: All the other good shit is nuked too
It seems pretty clear to me which game has a better set of choices. :erg:
Dr. Dumb_lunatic on 11/10/2007 at 09:30
I've always felt the Omar ending to be hugely open to interpretation.
A lot of people seem to assume that the desert wasteland in the final cinematic is earth, and that everything "done got fucked"...
..which doesn't, necessarily, have to be the case. The accompanying voiceover implies that unchecked biomodification (frogsuits for the whole family!) eventually leads to a 'human-ish' form that's massively adaptable and capable of colonizing the galaxy.
So that could be..titan, or something. Or somewhere light years away.
If you don't mind the frogsuit aspects and the 'forced biomodification/hiveminding' :eek: , the Omar ending has potential. :)
Chuck on 11/10/2007 at 14:35
I always felt bad about what happened to Leo concerning his involvement with the Omar.
heywood on 11/10/2007 at 15:29
Quote Posted by ZymeAddict
Actually, I thought the ending level to IW was superior to Area 51. The later was overly confusing and frustrating for me the first time through (for instance, I didn't at first grasp the concept of closing off the UC spawning stations so killing I was faced with an infinite amount of enemies). Also, I liked how with IW's ending the main characters were now all legitimate targets for you for the first time.
I was confused by the respawning at first too, but after exploring the level a bit I saw what was happening at the UC stations and took care of it.
I liked the whole of A51 because the game kept building tension as you went deeper and deeper in. You had the sense that you were reaching the climax of the game. I liked the music. I liked the banter with Bob Page. I even liked the design of the final level. Also, A51 revealed a lot of secrets and tied up loose plot lines. In IW, the "big reveal" happens in Antarctica. When you get to Liberty Island, there's not really any plot left. The whole level is just a matter of picking a side. But the biggest problem I have with Liberty Island in IW is the level design. It was just bad.
Quote:
I don't really see how you can say the DX endings were nearly as bad as those in IW. Here's how they looked to me:
Well, as you said, both games have Illuminati endings, merge with the AI endings, and chaos endings. The Illuminati endings are the only options remotely palatable to me, and then only because the alternatives are worse. Both of the merge with the AI endings scare the hell out of me. In DX, you create an omniscient dictator to rule the world. In IW, you create a tyranny of the majority, and lose privacy and individualism in the process. The chaos endings don't appeal to me either, although IW goes further by foreshadowing the future.
DaveW on 11/10/2007 at 23:54
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
The quality of the first few minutes of IW are, in fact, representative of the entire game. You have the intrusive HUD interface, the bug-eyed character models, the dull washed-out textures, the cramped level design, the tiny maps, and the awful writing that typify the entire experience.
To summarise:
HEY GUYS I DON'T LIKE IW SO YOU CAN'T LIKE IT EITHER ALRIGHTQuote:
Streamlining. Everything about DX that was streamlined for IW allows you to virtually count the number of notches a game has fallen to make it marketable to the xbox crowd
blah blah incorrect "streamlined for console bullshit"You cannot tell this from 7 minutes. You're entitled to hate the game, but by no means is your opinion educated, informed, or sound convincing at all. Your summarisation of the story demonstrates this.
