SubJeff on 2/11/2010 at 21:15
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
A game is not defined as anything that can be interacted with. By that metric a can opener is a game.
I can't be the only one dying to hear your bullet-proof, perfect definition of a "game", you tiresome robot.
The thing is, you don't have one nor do you have the balls to admit it. Just fess up; you don't know how to define Dear Esther and it eats you up that it doesn't fit into one of your King O' Pedants boxes of Aspergerism.
ZylonBane on 2/11/2010 at 22:30
Quote Posted by Sulphur
DE is quite obviously interactive fiction. It's interactive simply because the story won't be told without player input to guide their avatar through the environment.
A book is quite obviously interactive fiction. It's interactive simply because the story won't be told without reader input to turn the pages.
Look, I cut my gaming on teeth on the likes of Zork, Planetfall, Hitchhiker's Guide, etc. What little fiction DE musters isn't interacted with, it's merely and trivially observed. So if you're going to insist that it's IF, then you must further caveat that it's
terrible IF.
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
I can't be the only one dying to hear your bullet-proof, perfect definition of a "game", you tiresome robot.
Careful, your desperate need to have people agree with you is showing.
Quote:
Just fess up; you don't know how to define Dear Esther and it eats you up that it doesn't fit into one of your King O' Pedants boxes of Aspergerism.
Sorry, no. I'm having way too much fun watching you flounder. So... I believe you were attempting to avoid explaining how DE is more of a game than a can opener. Do go on.
Sulphur on 2/11/2010 at 22:38
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
Look, I cut my gaming on teeth on the likes of Zork, Planetfall, Hitchhiker's Guide, etc. What little fiction DE musters isn't interacted with, it's merely and trivially observed. So if you're going to insist that it's IF, then you must further caveat that it's
terrible IF.
I'll concede that it's terrible as far as the 'interactive' goes because it's very limited interaction at best. It's certainly powerful fiction, at least.
But the one thing that books can't do is engage your senses to almost literally transport you to the world you're exploring. Turning pages is all well and good, but you only see what you're reading in your mind's eye, not with your actual eyes. There's something about controlling an avatar that gives you a sense of place, of actually existing in or being connected to a gameworld, that's quite different from a movie. In that respect, perhaps the more appropriate term would be 'immersive' fiction.
SubJeff on 2/11/2010 at 23:20
Oh ZylonBane, your sidesteps have become so boring I don't care anymore.
Sulphur - I don't think DE is "terrible" as far as interaction goes but it certainly is... limited. It's just a step or two away from an adventure game, you just don't have any puzzles to solve. Regardless, it's an interactive computer entertainment product so it's a game.
Sulphur on 3/11/2010 at 20:41
Subj, it depends on what you want to place a priority on. For most intents and purposes, extremely limited interaction = terrible when it comes to games, because interaction is the key difference between gaming and your average book or movie. It's the major selling point of the medium.
When it comes to DE, though, I honestly don't care about how interactive it should or shouldn't be. It is what it is; you could even say that the limited interaction is a pre-requisite of the story. After all, you're exploring the narrator's headspace. It's not like you'd go around in your own head turning on taps or rowing a boat.
So to reiterate, I'm not concerned about whether people want to call it a game or not; however, I'd rather leave it at being grouped under the umbrella term of IF because a) the genre already exists and b) like you said, it's computer entertainment (or 'art' if you prefer) which fits the puzzle-less IF genre simply by virtue of requiring you to guide your avatar to explore the environment.
It's certainly not a book, and certainly not a movie. If it's not IF though, then the only thing left is 'fiction', which is just a hair too ambiguous.
hopper on 3/11/2010 at 21:23
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
What little fiction DE musters isn't interacted with, it's merely and trivially observed. So if you're going to insist that it's IF, then you must further caveat that it's terrible IF.
Whatever else you'd like to classify DE as, it's certainly interactive in a way that a book isn't. You move your mouse, press buttons, and your avatar turns around and walks: interaction. Your analogy about turning the pages of a book may be suitable for an online picture gallery (what you see on which page is predetermined), but not for moving around at will in a virtual environment. And it's fictional, so IF isn't that bad a moniker. As to whether it's a "game", well, is a war game really a "game"?
Calling DE a game seems unsuitable because there are no obstacles, nothing to achieve - no riddles, no enemies, nothing. Well, but it is interactive entertainment that runs on a computer game engine, so what are you going to call it? Sometimes definitions have to be tweaked to fit to new realities. Like "posting" messages on an online "forum" in "threads" that are often several "pages" long.
Renzatic on 4/11/2010 at 03:19
Lets just call it a video entertainment experience and be done with it. Yeah, you could include movies, games, or whatever else in that rather broad definition. That's kind the point.
I haven't personally played DE yet. I wanted to, but when I saw shots of the remake, I figured I'd wait for it instead of playing the mod as is. Though from everything I've heard about it, I wouldn't classify it as a "game" as such. Mostly for the reasons Hopper stated above. But it's interactive, and it sure as hell is a thing. So it has to be something, right?
I guess if you absolutely have to get specific to stave off the future brain embolism, you could call it something like interactive exploratory fiction. That makes the most sense to me.
ZylonBane on 7/11/2010 at 16:49
DE is a walking tour where some prankster replaced the historical narrations with some guy rambling about his love life.
Sulphur on 7/11/2010 at 16:53
But it's a walking tour ON A PC GAME ENGINE DAMMIT
Also, if that's your working definition of 'love life', ZB, I feel sorry for you
ZylonBane on 7/11/2010 at 17:10
Quote Posted by Sulphur
Also, if that's your working definition of 'love life', ZB, I feel sorry for you
That's the best obligatory snark you could come up with? Honestly? Your troll-fu is slipping.
