Dawkinism: Tasteful, as always

Vivian on 19/2/2009 at 19:51

OK, point A: evolution is not up for debate, just the mechanism. There is abundant evidence of adaptation taking place, flu being the most blindingly obvious, followed by the entire fossil record. Theories of the mechanisms behind evolution are suggested, refined and rejected, but the fact of evolution is no more debatable than the fact of electricity or magnetism. Deal with it.
Point B: at the early stages, a foetus is literally just a ball of cells. You can argue all you like, but that is it. An early foetus is no more a complete person than a human spermatozoa is, but people are merrily cavalier with those.

fett on 19/2/2009 at 20:02

The semantics of the abortion debate or creationism is beside the point. Neither am I saying that religious people are the only ones who want to debate these things. But I don't think anyone disagrees that these debates/conflicts would not affect legislation and education to the degree that they do here in the U.S. were it not for the religious/faith-based lobby. For that very reason (as I said in response to Koyla's post) religion IS serious business, because it motivates people to act on and vote on those beliefs. When those beliefs are derived from a literal interpretation of the Bible (as is the case for the *majority* of evangelicals), there are no gray areas, no middle ground on these issues. Extremism is born, even though it doesn't usually mature into violence, and breeds a mode of thinking that is incongruent with reality in a multitude of ways. In my experience, this attracts, exacerbates, and even causes a psychological cognitive dissonance at best, dysfunction, depression, and extremism at worst. Surely not the case every time, but history shows that this does happen, and can even happen on a grand scale ala the Branch Dividian tragedy, Jonestowne, and televangelism scandals that seem to be ongoing, involving entire staffs and congregations. Do these things happen outside of religion? Of course - but the difference is that in the community of faith, supernatural change and accountability to a higher power should prevent such things more often than not.

Herbrand on 19/2/2009 at 20:18

fett,

do you really think that the important themes you mentioned earlier - abortion and gay marriages - are opposed only by religious people?
I can think of several good reasons based simply on humanity and empathy against them, although I am not really willing of starting a long debate on them.

On a merely human level, I see a distinction between people who limit the Golden Rule to the individual sphere - the more "radical" form of liberism - and those who are more keen to limit individual freedoms where allowing them would go against the interest of the society as a whole.

I heard that people tend to become more conservative when they first become parent, and certainly the idea of being one soon strengthened my already conservative views. The reason of why this happen, is that one stop thinking about one's self and, although on a little scale, starts thinking to a community, and how the philosophy of "free everything" affect those who don't have enough experience of life and judgment.

Kolya on 19/2/2009 at 20:41

Sorry fett, I tend to forget that Americans are batshit crazy about religion. Christians here are mostly harmless well meaning people.

Queue on 19/2/2009 at 21:04

You should burn them at the stake. Bloody witches.

fett on 19/2/2009 at 22:17

Quote Posted by Herbrand

The first two sentences of my post directly above yours:

Quote Posted by fett

The semantics of the abortion debate or creationism is beside the point. Neither am I saying that religious people are the only ones who want to debate these things.

;)

@ Kolya: Having both lived in Europe and traveled there quite a bit (never been to England though) I think the distinction between a post-christian culture like Europe, and a quasi-religious culture like the U.S. is important. A politician can barely get elected here unless they invoke God, a higher power, and many even directly invoke Jesus. We have our select gay senators and atheist councilmen, but they are in the minority, even if they only espouse and do not practice Christianity. Hell, the atheist blogs almost exploded when Obama mentioned people who 'claim no faith' in his inauguration speech. It was a brief mention, but it was HUGE for non-deists in this country that we even got a tip of the hat at a televised political event.

jay pettitt on 19/2/2009 at 23:14

Didn't Obi say '...those who have no belief...' - I was a bit pissed at him for that. Grrr. (accepting though that US atheists may have been stoked to get a mention at all)

I guess one problem with religion and it's take on abortion and gay marriage is that religion makes it 'ok' to be wrong about abortion and gay marriage - what with the inclusion of a higher, all knowing being somewhere in the mix.

I don't think wrong is a desirable quality. Especially if you're deciding policy.

There may be some merit in picking and choosing if you really must believe in a god and it is, I hope, what most people with a religious belief do - but when push comes to shove religious dogma doesn't falsify and as such shouldn't be relied upon to provide objective moral or ethical guidance. I suspect most people with a religious belief will jump through hoops rather than face that fact.

Quote:

I heard that people tend to become more conservative when they first become parent

Must be a side effect of sleep deprivation :/

Scots Taffer on 20/2/2009 at 00:46

I've gone the other way, I'm more liberal now than I ever was.

Except abortions, I'm a little iffier on abortions after being exposed to extremely young fetuses via scans and seeing just how formed they are.

Chade on 20/2/2009 at 01:02

Quote Posted by Herbrand

I heard that people tend to become more conservative when they first become parent

I think this probably has more to do with the inherent stupidity involved in lumping a huge number of issues into just two categories.

RavynousHunter on 20/2/2009 at 21:58

Quote Posted by Scots Taffer

Except abortions, I'm a little iffier on abortions after being exposed to extremely young fetuses via scans and seeing just how formed they are.

Personally, I don't think abortion should even come down to a question of ethics or religion, but one of responsibility. In cases of rape, incest, or molestation, you should be within your rights to abort the pregnancy. However, if you got knocked up at a party at the local frat house and you have a kid, you should be forced to carry it to term, because you are responsible for your own actions, and if those actions lead to a new life being brought into this world, then so be it. You're an adult, you're responsible, now act like it.