paloalto90 on 18/12/2007 at 09:51
Quote:
will have HUGE ramifications on the rest of his life, as well as on society. What if because of this guilt and resulting 'saving' the child grows up to become a missionary instead of a doctor, or devotes his life to studying the bible instead of working for the betterment of humanity?
How can you support this statement?You bieleve that a high percentage of people have used the Bible for the detriment of others?Because what gets recorded are the wars and other things?But the small ways in which it might have helped someone are not in the main written down for ther people to see?
Vasquez on 18/12/2007 at 10:26
Quote Posted by fett
But doesn't it disturb you at all that a mother would use the death of a child's close friend as an opportunity, or rather as pressure, to accept a belief system when the child is too young to even understand it? There's nothing about that which screams 'brainwashing' too you?
Looking from outside, it certainly seems very sick. 7-yo kid thinks very practically, so he probably thinks those other kids died because they did something "wrong", and if he made a mistake God would kill him too, and he would end up BURNING IN THE LAKE OF FIRE. I bet he'll be a very neurotic little boy, at least for a good while.
On the other hand, I'm assuming the mother's intentions are good - this is what she believes, and she really thinks that it's her son's best interest to "get saved". So even though that death&brimstone -threat hidden in sweet voice and "Mom just tells you
how it is" -speech made me wanna hurl, too, the mother was being as good a parent she could be.
There is no way you can detach personal beliefs from parenting. If the beliefs are very strong, usually kids either "get brainwashed" and become like their parents, or they rebel and end up exactly the opposite. Where human emotions are at work, you can't expect pure logic and 100% objectivity.
d0om on 18/12/2007 at 10:39
That story is certainly horrific to me, a kid's friend has died horribly and the mother just wants to celebrate that the kid is now so scared of dying he's decided to "ask Jesus into his heart as he could die at any moment".
Things like this send shivers down my spine.
Its nearly as bad as the university Christian union, where they don't allow women to speak as "it might offend some of our members who believe in the teachings of Paul."
Some Christians are wonderful people, I have never met a Quaker I didn't like. But some of the other denominations are downright scary.
Thirith on 18/12/2007 at 10:46
That may be true, but where does such an attitude turn into condoning that sort of thing? And then condoning more extreme, more fundamentalist behaviour?
fett on 18/12/2007 at 13:18
Quote Posted by Epos Nix
fett, anywhere an idea exists, there exists some sort of brainwashing attempting to proliferate that idea. Religion is not alone here and should not be condemned because people misuse or misunderstand its purpose.
As for the child, certainly there can be huge ramifications. There are ramifications for
everything that happens during your lifetime. You are the end-result and culmination of your experiences, ffs. One question that weighed heavily on my conscious early on though was whether I should spend my life worrying about how people led their lives to the exclusion of determining how I was to lead mine. That said, I tend to worry less about others and how they chose to live and let the fates take things where they will.
Believe it or not, being disgusted by something does not change the eventual outcome of that thing! So if the end result is you merely feeling disgust, why not skip that and just let it go?
Well, at least I agree completely with you about the above, but as mopgoblin says, it's more about the imposition of belief on innocents (children) than the belief itself.
Many good thoughts here:
paloalto90: I've seen the bible used for both good and bad. I've been party to both over the course of 20 years as a pastor and relief worker within the christian sub-culture. But from that experience I'd have to conclude that while I've seen many, many good, tangible things accomplished from the motivation of faith and love of God (relief work, self-sacrifice for the physical well-being of others), I would say that the psychological and emotional consequences of the belief system on the individuals far outweighs the good that comes from their actions. I've specifically seen the belief system result in multiple instances of broken homes, abuse, willful ignorance about a variety of social/political issues (which has ramifications for us all when it comes time to vote), mental/psychological breakdowns, health deterioration. I'm not saying the bible causes these things, I'm just saying the belief system that accompanies modern christianity often serves as an incubator for such problems. I don't want to paint with too broad a brush, but this has been my admittedly subjective experience over the course of many years in a wide variety of situations. Back to SD's statement about mental illness, I do have to say that from a distance (now), there exists a definite state of mental unbalance with many christians. That's why I posted this letter from my friend as an example. I don't care how you look at it, when a parent uses the death another person or fear to persuade children of
anything, something sick is going on.
Lastly
Epos' post is best answered by
Thirth's post: How do we go from acknowledging such a thing to condoning it? We shouldn't, yet do - in the name of tolerance. Which leads us back to the original post of course.
Raven on 18/12/2007 at 14:44
I should also say that I found fetts letter disturbing. It definitely sounds like the kid was scared into belief by death! (and that is just horrible). I suppose another way of looking at it could be that the kid did make the informed decisions about life/death and the point of life - but if so, he is showing remarkable maturity for a child (though they can do this now and again).
To become a Christian (or to try to) should be an informed decision made by an adult, or at least those responsible for the children (hence one baptism while as an infant with the promise by the parents to bring the kid up with knowledge of Christ (and the full and proper teachings of the church)). Adult baptism has to be an informed process and there are indeed structured courses that you should go on to find out more about the faith before your baptism (again the whole one baptism that you need). [[ASIDE: If you are baptised and then fall into sin, AS EVERYONE DOES, the good news is that by truly repenting you can still experience the grace and forgiveness that god gives]]
After baptism is confirmation, at this stage the child becomes an adult in the eyes of the church - When/if I become a parent my kids will defiantly be baptised... but it will be their informed decision to be confirmed, and they will be doing this when they are old enough to make the decision, and they will know that I will support them whatever there choice is (I say this ofcourse, but it is untested in time, I might suffer a mental illness before then!!!). I believe that you really can't pick and choose in your faith -you need the whole package: family, church, LIFE outside church, personal experience, spiritual, physical, questioning, exploration... otherwise I don't see how people can make a choice if they don't know the options!
Well yeah, call me a Roman Catholic but I kinda have to agree - "the belief system that accompanies modern Christianity often serves as an incubator for such problems"
paloalto90 on 18/12/2007 at 15:35
I'm sure that many individuals have been brought up in a religious home and have departed from it while others had no training and have embraced it.
I am also sure that people bring their own psychological baggage and momentums of thought during a time when they are involved in a religion.
So what determines whether a person will thrive or deteriorate during this period?
Do atheists not have breakdowns and busted marriages and problems of their own?
Are you sure Fett that you don't have an ax to grind here?
Do we know the reason why the young boy "embraced Jesus"?It could have been out of fear.If it was and I bieleve the mother was not using her own fear to blatantly coerce the child,he also couild question that part of his faith when he grows up,could question the whole idea of damnation and hell fire and find other reasons to bieleve.Or he could reject his religion all together.
Trainig a child doesn't mean he or she has to be a robot withoiut change in his perspective.
fett on 18/12/2007 at 16:35
Quote Posted by paloalto90
I'm sure that many individuals have been brought up in a religious home and have departed from it while others had no training and have embraced it.
I am also sure that people bring their own psychological baggage and momentums of thought during a time when they are involved in a religion.
So what determines whether a person will thrive or deteriorate during this period?
Do atheists not have breakdowns and busted marriages and problems of their own?
Are you sure Fett that you don't have an ax to grind here?
Do we know the reason why the young boy "embraced Jesus"?It could have been out of fear.If it was and I bieleve the mother was not using her own fear to blatantly coerce the child,he also couild question that part of his faith when he grows up,could question the whole idea of damnation and hell fire and find other reasons to bieleve.Or he could reject his religion all together.
Trainig a child doesn't mean he or she has to be a robot withoiut change in his perspective.
Of course I have an axe to grind! But I'm trying to grind it using an extensive history and relationship with the church, an arguably solid understanding of the bible, and a fairly comprehensive grasp of Judeo/christian theology. I didn't leave Christianity because someone hurt my feelings. I left because I couldn't reconcile the theology with experience - mine or anyone else's that I observed.
As for this kid - it's true that he'll have opportunity to change his beliefs later, but if you know much about childhood education, the beliefs and opinions that develop at this age - especially those planted by parents - take very deep root and have an impact on the way the brain routes, organizes, and stores information. There's nothing harmless about what the mom has done here in terms of the kid's psychological and emotional development. I've rarely seen this type of stunt go by without negative consequences later in life for both parent and child.
paloalto90 on 18/12/2007 at 16:46
Unfortunately the argument falls flat for someone who has read the Bilbe or other religious books and is involved in religion and does get something out of it.Could you argue these individuals are damaged in some way when there is no evidence of it?
Or are they being duped in some manner?
Vasquez on 18/12/2007 at 17:37
In this particular case it's not IMO just so much about Christianity or any religion, it's how a child's mind is manipulated by fear and superstition, no matter what's the excuse. Of course, makes it sort of funny in a hideous way that it's Christianity, "God is Love" etc.
Most grownups have neuroses, anxieties, emotional and sexual problems and other hangups that were planted in childhood - often with a well-meaning or at least "It wasn't THAT bad" -attitude. Compared to my own hangups, that have lead to anxiety and bouts of OCD symptoms, what that mom did was entirely different magnitude (to the worse).
