fett on 17/12/2007 at 22:47
Yes. I don't mean any disrespect. I used to take a spiritual view of everything as well, so I can't fault anyone else for doing it. But trying to explain to them why it's inconsistent with both theology and reality is impossible. I believe that life experience (esp. tragedy, loss, suffering, etc.) is about the only thing that can make someone ask the right questions, and even then, they may come out on the other side with stronger faith. Maybe it's a weakness of character, but I simply didn't. I came out the other side wondering why the hell I wasted 20 years of my life on this insanity.
Here's another case in point - I'm posting an e-mail, context in tact, that I got from a family member earlier today. This individual is not a radical right-winger, nor is she stupid - in fact she's one of the more intelligent people I know. But her mind is for some reason unable to see how bizarre her perspective is:
Quote:
Jacob asked Jesus into his heart last night! He was
so very tender and touched; we all shed many tears! He
plans to be baptized next Sunday! One really neat fact
about this---I was saved at the age of 7 and a half,
right before Christmas, just like Jacob! We have known
that Jacob was getting closer because he feels so
guilty when he does wrong. Also, he talks about
waiting on Jesus to ask him to be saved, because he
truly knew all about it!
What I believe brought Jacob to seriously thinking
about this is what happened yesterday to one of
Jonathan's friends. Tanner Rose and his little
sister,Brooklyn, were killed in a car wreck on their
way to church yesterday morning.Tanner was in
Jonathan's 4th grade class and was also his partner on
a project due this week for school. A drilling rig
rolled over on their SUV about half way up Joy Mtn
(very close to my parent's road). We think the truck
must have pushed both vehicles down into the rock
quarry there. The father, Stephen, is in critical
condition and has had surgery last night. The mother,
Elizabeth, has a broken arm and is stable. Please pray
for her,the kids,this family, and that the father makes it
through this. Elizabeth needs him!!It's so hard to understand
when children have to die! Thankfully I don't have to
comprehend because God knows.
When we were discussing this with our boys yesterday,
I told them that's why no one should tell Christ "NO"
when He asks them to be saved because you never know
when you might die. Later, Shannon repeated the same
words. Within minutes Jacob's lip was quivering and he
told me he felt like he was getting saved. We
questioned him; we prayed; we rejoiced!!! God truly
loves us!
Is it just me, or is something about this sick, sick, sick? Again, this is not some wild, radical born-again whacko. And neither is this perspective strange or uncommon among mainstream Christianity - I know because over the course of 20 some odd years I was exposed to almost every popular denomination and many, many sub-sects of those denominations for lengthy periods of time. I don't know of any Christian who would have a problem with the above scenario - they would view these events as God, "working all things together for his good." The dead children are in heaven, a friend got 'saved' - what's not to rejoice about? The conclusion is 'truly God loves us' - not, 'truly God is a bastard because he dropped a drilling rig on two small children.' The spiritual benefits of the events outweigh the horrible reality of the situation (at least to christian bystanders) - we simply 'don't understand why children have to die' - only God knows. But notice also that none of the responsibility for the tragedy is placed on God. Further questioning of most christians would reveal that the true culprit here is 'the sin of man' which brought death into the world to begin with. Not the careless truck driver, the driver of the SUV, or God who either orchestrated or allowed these events to take place. And trying to get a straight answer from theologians or the bible about the subject is like nailing jello to a wall.
I'm going to go throw up now.
Epos Nix on 17/12/2007 at 23:46
Quote:
But her mind is for some reason unable to see how bizarre her perspective is
And I ask you: if her perspective is so wrong, what perspective
should she have?
I fail to see the problem with people finding some positive light in negative events. Even if the religious are deluded, their delusions are probably keeping them a bit more emotionally balanced than they would otherwise be. Of course, considering that not one among us has all the answers, I think it's safe to say that we all, in some form or another, suffer from our own personal delusions. Lots of kettles and pots all calling each other black, I'd say.
That's one reason I like Buddhism so much... the only real 'sin' in Buddhism is ignorance. Ignorance is the flame by which all other sins are fanned. And I find it amusing the fact that the Dalai Lama himself, being spiritual head of Tibetan Buddhism, exclaimed he would abandon Buddhism in an instant if science or some other belief system were to usurp its credibility. And this is a person who believes he's the reincarnation of (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avalokite%C5%9Bvara) this guy... surely one suffering from mental illness at its worse! ;)
The_Raven on 18/12/2007 at 00:57
Quote:
That's one reason I like Buddhism so much... the only real 'sin' in Buddhism is ignorance.
I can't speak for anyone else, but that's certainly what I believe as a science minded atheist.
fett on 18/12/2007 at 02:24
Quote Posted by Epos Nix
And I ask you: if her perspective is so wrong, what perspective
should she have?
I fail to see the problem with people finding some positive light in negative events. Even if the religious are deluded, their delusions are probably keeping them a bit more emotionally balanced than they would otherwise be. Of course, considering that not one among us has all the answers, I think it's safe to say that we all, in some form or another, suffer from our own personal delusions. Lots of kettles and pots all calling each other black, I'd say.
That's one reason I like Buddhism so much... the only real 'sin' in Buddhism is ignorance. Ignorance is the flame by which all other sins are fanned. And I find it amusing the fact that the Dalai Lama himself, being spiritual head of Tibetan Buddhism, exclaimed he would abandon Buddhism in an instant if science or some other belief system were to usurp its credibility. And this is a person who believes he's the reincarnation of (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avalokite%C5%9Bvara) this guy... surely one suffering from mental illness at its worse! ;)
But doesn't it disturb you at all that a mother would use the death of a child's close friend as an opportunity, or rather as pressure, to accept a belief system when the child is too young to even understand it? There's nothing about that which screams 'brainwashing' too you?
paloalto90 on 18/12/2007 at 02:52
Quote Posted by fett
Yes. I don't mean any disrespect. I used to take a spiritual view of everything as well, so I can't fault anyone else for doing it. But trying to explain to them why it's inconsistent with both theology and reality is impossible. I believe that life experience (esp. tragedy, loss, suffering, etc.) is about the only thing that can make someone ask the right questions, and even then, they may come out on the other side with stronger faith. Maybe it's a weakness of character, but I simply didn't. I came out the other side wondering why the hell I wasted 20 years of my life on this insanity.
Here's another case in point - I'm posting an e-mail, context in tact, that I got from a family member earlier today. This individual is not a radical right-winger, nor is she stupid - in fact she's one of the more intelligent people I know. But her mind is for some reason unable to see how bizarre her perspective is:
Is it just me, or is something about this sick, sick, sick? Again, this is not some wild, radical born-again whacko. And neither is this perspective strange or uncommon among mainstream Christianity - I know because over the course of 20 some odd years I was exposed to almost every popular denomination and many, many sub-sects of those denominations for lengthy periods of time. I don't know of any Christian who would have a problem with the above scenario - they would view these events as God, "working all things together for his good." The dead children are in heaven, a friend got 'saved' - what's not to rejoice about? The conclusion is 'truly God loves us' - not, 'truly God is a bastard because he dropped a drilling rig on two small children.' The spiritual benefits of the events outweigh the horrible reality of the situation (at least to christian bystanders) - we simply 'don't understand why children have to die' - only God knows. But notice also that none of the responsibility for the tragedy is placed on God. Further questioning of most christians would reveal that the true culprit here is 'the sin of man' which brought death into the world to begin with. Not the careless truck driver, the driver of the SUV, or God who either orchestrated or allowed these events to take place. And trying to get a straight answer from theologians or the bible about the subject is like nailing jello to a wall.
I'm going to go throw up now.
There is a time when God must respect your free will and a time when he will nudge you along if necessary.The bottom line is whatever moves the soul closer to God,God will do and support.You may see all sorts of phenomena that from a human point of view is tragic,painful and unnecesary.Was it caused by man and his free will or was it caused by what some would call karma or God stepping in.Who can say in every situation.
Some people treat God like he is a lawyer.If I follow x,y,z then this healing must take place.But if the soul can advance more by remaining sick and have the opportunity to learn something then it probably won't happen.Again from a human point of view why wouldn't God want everybody healed?Yet how many people have said that an illness forced a change in their life?
That woman may be wrong about the outcome of her child,(and from my point of view she is, bieleving that your "salvation "is up to you),but even within the context of her faith she can move upward if she wishes.
To God getting a point of theology wrong is not given a lot of weight as long as you are striving to improve and your motivations are good,so
you make progress in spite of you religion not because of it.
You say she is intelligent as if to imply that intelligent people would not bieleve in God or somehow this is a weakness in her character.I think a lot of people have given a great deal of brain matter to decide whether God exists or not and the various aspects of their religion.Then there are those who are born into it are aloof from it and don't give it much thought.
The fact that we don't know everything should not preclude someone who wants to take the plunge into the spiritual life.
I have a lot of questions but I put them on the back burner until I get an answer.
Epos Nix on 18/12/2007 at 03:07
Quote:
But doesn't it disturb you at all that a mother would use the death of a child's close friend as an opportunity, or rather as pressure, to accept a belief system when the child is too young to even understand it?
No. It does not disturb me fett. But then again, not too much does.
You paint this situation with a negative brush under the pretense of 'brainwashing' and she paints it with a positive brush under the pretense of 'saving' but truly the only thing that matters is the end result of the matter. Will the child grow up and be a Ghandi or a Hitler? Will this incident have
any bearing on the rest of his life? Should we judge the situation until we understand the ramifications of such?
Fortunately for me I'm not so short-sighted as to claim to understand where the 'right' or 'wrong' in this situation lay.
Quoting my original post in this thread: "Are you sure it's Christianity that paints a spin on things and not our own egos?"
Part of my Buddhist training these last several years has gone towards tempering my own ego. Along with that has come the realization that my opinion generally has little bearing on that grand 'ol Ultimate Truth thing and instead only reflects my own prejudices on the matters I perceive. So rather than have an ill-conceived opinion on a matter I generally think it best to wait and see what happens next and take what lesson I can from it.
fett on 18/12/2007 at 05:15
Quote Posted by Epos Nix
No. It does not disturb me fett. But then again, not too much does.
You paint this situation with a negative brush under the pretense of 'brainwashing' and she paints it with a positive brush under the pretense of 'saving' but truly the only thing that matters is the end result of the matter. Will the child grow up and be a Ghandi or a Hitler? Will this incident have
any bearing on the rest of his life? Should we judge the situation until we understand the ramifications of such?
It will have HUGE ramifications on the rest of his life, as well as on society. What if because of this guilt and resulting 'saving' the child grows up to become a missionary instead of a doctor, or devotes his life to studying the bible instead of working for the betterment of humanity? (I'm not going to argue that studying the bible accomplishes the same thing because history clearly shows that it does not). The course of this kid's life could possibly take a dramatic turn and the resultant adopting of the christian perspective should/could determine everything from his career to his choice of spouse, to his politics, etc. etc. etc.
You seem to assume that this kid (or people in general) separate beliefs from real life, if you don't think it will have any bearing on the rest of his life. People act on beliefs and this kid is having a belief system he doesn't understand foisted upon him in a moment of innocent vulnerability. There will be psychological, social, and emotional consequences. I counseled people within the church for years and my experience (subjective though it may be) is that they are some of the most psychologically and emotionally unstable and confused people I've ever encountered. I strongly believe that events such as the one I posted above contribute greatly to these conditions.
Just out of curiosity, does it bother you when you see school-age kids spouting hate speech, or parroting rhetoric they've heard from parents? There is a similar type of manipulation of a child that takes place when you use something as scary as death to shape their beliefs. I've seen the danger and abuse of this, and if you can't, I don't think I can explain it to you.
Epos Nix on 18/12/2007 at 06:30
fett, anywhere an idea exists, there exists some sort of brainwashing attempting to proliferate that idea. Religion is not alone here and should not be condemned because people misuse or misunderstand its purpose.
As for the child, certainly there can be huge ramifications. There are ramifications for everything that happens during your lifetime. You are the end-result and culmination of your experiences, ffs. One question that weighed heavily on my conscious early on though was whether I should spend my life worrying about how people led their lives to the exclusion of determining how I was to lead mine. That said, I tend to worry less about others and how they chose to live and let the fates take things where they will.
Believe it or not, being disgusted by something does not change the eventual outcome of that thing! So if the end result is you merely feeling disgust, why not skip that and just let it go?
mopgoblin on 18/12/2007 at 08:33
Quote Posted by Epos Nix
As for the child, certainly there can be huge ramifications. There are ramifications for
everything that happens during your lifetime. You are the end-result and culmination of your experiences, ffs. One question that weighed heavily on my conscious early on though was whether I should spend my life worrying about how people led their lives to the exclusion of determining how I was to lead mine. That said, I tend to worry less about others and how they chose to live and let the fates take things where they will.
It's less about how people are leading their own lives and more about how they're interfering in the lives of others, abusing their power and manipulating others when they're most vulnerabe. That's going far beyond anything reasonable or ethical.
paloalto90 on 18/12/2007 at 09:47
Quote Posted by mopgoblin
It's less about how people are leading their own lives and more about how they're interfering in the lives of others, abusing their power and manipulating others when they're most vulnerabe. That's going far beyond anything reasonable or ethical.
That is an individual choice of people who are deciding what to do with their bielefs.However the motivation for raising children in a certain way is not to interfere with another persons bielef.
