Tintin on 17/12/2007 at 10:59
Morte, Christians don't have 'honour killings', you've been misinformed.
D'Juhn Keep on 17/12/2007 at 11:19
I think his POINT is that whatever name you call it, in Islam we refer to them as 'honour killings', the overriding factor in the murder is that of disobeying the leader of the clan. If a girl tells her redneck christian dad that she doesn't want to marry her cousin and is killed for it, for example.
That said I don't have any real examples, I'm just taking a stab at explaining what I think Morte means.
Morte on 17/12/2007 at 12:07
There's honour killings occurring amongst Christian people in the more tribal parts of the world as well, afaik. I wasn't referring to any cases in the western part of the world. My point was that this, like all honour killings, is more about men from very patriarchal social systems trying to maintain control over female sexuality than religion.
Though it's very unfortunate that religion provides such handy justification for this shit.
paloalto90 on 17/12/2007 at 15:19
Quote Posted by Thirith
But then, if you look at it like that, then what reason is there not to believe in the Pink Invisible Unicorn? I respect any reasons you may have to be a believer, since I am one too, but saying "No evidence for or against God, nyah nyah!" doesn't strike me as a terribly strong argument - unless you respect people who believe in the Pink Invisible Unicorn.
Neither does nyah nyah strike me as a strong argument to show that not bieleving in God and having it shape your world view is any more valid than bieleving in God and having it do likewise.
If there were any historic evidence that peoples of the world developed an on going relationship with a Pink Invisible Unicorn God we could perhaps make an eighth world religion out of that,although both are equally impossible to prove or disprove.
And to judge religions on their extreme fringe elements is suspect in itself.
Matthew on 17/12/2007 at 15:24
Quote Posted by paloalto90
If there were any historic evidence that peoples of the world developed an on going relationship with a Pink Invisible Unicorn God we could perhaps make an eighth world religion out of that,although both are equally impossible to prove or disprove.
I wonder if that's what people said about the first person to believe in Ganesha.
Raven on 17/12/2007 at 16:46
Quote Posted by fett
In defense of SD (Oh god what has happened to me), I also believe it is a form of mental illness.... Christianity teaches you to put a spin on just about everything - a spin that paints distortion over reality.....
Now that I'm 3-4 years removed from that culture...
*Your spouse is diagnosed with cancer....
*Children are taught not to steal, kill, lie, etc. because it's a 'sin' - not because of the tangible, negative consequences that result from such behavior....
*Cause and effect relationships are reversed, duplicated, or looped to always give God credit for good things, and absolve him of responsibility for bad things.....
I could go on and on, but essentially, you tend to develop a mentality that nothing can be defined or explained outside of a christian cultural/biblical interpretation. People don't just get sick, or have accidents - there's always some mystical purpose for it, and I've watched several people literally go mad trying to discern this purpose. Simple geological and environmental events such as earthquakes, rain, snow, and even the temperature are ascribed a spiritual purpose when the need fits (i.e. "Well it rained today, so the Lord must have known Billy was too sick to go to the ball game. Now he can miss it without letting his team down). Any and every event in life *must* be ascribed some greater purpose for it to have any meaning at all. For me, this developed into a situation where I was so eternally minded, that I was missing the wonderful things going on around me. The Christians here will surely say, "But you were unbalanced - that's not the way God intends for us to live." I agree that scripturally that may be true, but in reality, it is nearly impossible to have a biblical mindset and not be given over to this type of thinking and behavior. Call it a fault of human nature, or the fault of the bible - either way it is a fucked up piece of business that destroys marriages, innocence, hope, and civil responsibility. (Do I sound like Dawkins now?)
As I stand at a distance from this culture in which I was solidly entrenched for so long, I would say that there is absolutely an element of mental illness that develops over time. Events take place around them, and they are affected by things that simply will not fit into their metaphysical framework, so the brain tries to find ways to explain the evidence of reality while still holding to this fantastical mental construct they've developed. Many end up not only unable to make sense of spiritual issues, but rendered impotent to control their own lives, make logical decisions, or function in a normal relationship that isn't steeped in bible-speak and spiritual justification of their (usually weird) behavior and thinking.
@fett - spare me – you seem to have forgotten most of what the whole Christian world view/perspective is about. Sure we/they ultimately may be deluding ourselves, but it is better than no purpose; it stands to logical reasoning (as well as any other world view/philosophy of life) and through life experience over MANY generations has found resonance in the way that people have chosen to lead their-lives. (Please don’t assume that everyone is less intelligent than yourself or less capable of making a reasoned judgement, and I am including in ages gone by too*)
*Your spouse is diagnosed with cancer, and you thank god for what he's trying to 'teach you' through this, ignoring the fact that the cancer victim is suffering, children/spouse will lose a parent/spouse, which causes a host of other problems, etc. - balls - the Christian perspective would be for you to consider how lucky you were to have someone in your life that you loved, (and that you would meet again in the after life) and it would teach you that it is your duty to relieve their suffering as much as possible, AND it acknowledges your suffering too!. (No euthanasia btw as that is not for you to decide, difficult yes but still with logical reasons behind the thinking) Honestly, what can you do about cancer anyway?– is there a better answer than to move on into acceptance of the situation and then you can concentrate on support for people suffering? (and pray to ease their suffering/strength to cope with the curve ball that life has thrown at you, which would have happened if you believed in god or not btw)
*Because it is a “sin” – when you consider that a sin is removing yourself from the loving presence of God, which (while on this existence) is best represented through unselfish love for your fellow human, then of course “because it is a sin” is the same tangible reason as with the negative effects you mentioned! Apparently YOU are simplify the notion of sin..
*Because that is what LIFE is! It would be completely different if it wasn’t, we can’t imagine it as any different! The grass is still green, even when you die the grass will still be green. Again it is accepting the facts of life = things can suck. This is no reason to not acknowledge the existence of what humans commonly perceive as beauty and majesty (and such). These concepts, in amongst our crazy mixed up world have such a hold over ourselves and are yet so far out of our comprehension we have reached the conclusion that there is more than the mere physical reality that we experience… and common thought has lead us to conceive a notion of some controlling element behind such beauty and majesty – we call it/him God.
*It is not mystical purposes – it is actual purpose! Ultimately everything is prompting you to be a better person, even your internal, (perhaps evolution based, survival of the fittest, common good for the species) personal monolog . Now how to we know how to be a good person, God if only we had an example… oh wait, I heard this story once about a guy called Jesus. Lets see… he he pretty much fits the bill of my vague notions, and yours too – I wonder if there is something in that!
And so on and so on…
*it bugs me how everyone thinks that we are all so god damn enlightened nowadays – bull crap, thousands are dieing of aid and starvation, and the best that people do about is type on the frigging internet, about how more sophisticated and intelligent we are all nowadays and how we have no need for a saviour/religion –if the bible is to subtle for you watch superman returns for Christ sake!
...weird behaviour? - as weird as everyone else’s? (but yeah you do get extremes, which is why you also have to live in the real world too)
Kuuso on 17/12/2007 at 17:24
Quote Posted by Raven
@fett - spare me – you seem to have forgotten most of what the whole Christian world view/perspective is about. Sure we/they ultimately may be deluding ourselves, but it is better than no purpose; it stands to logical reasoning (as well as any other world view/philosophy of life) and through life experience over MANY generations has found resonance in the way that people have chosen to lead their-lives.
Exactly why is it better than having no purpose? Personally, I do not think there's a purpose in life. Well, I mean, people make their own purposes, but there is no "right" purpose and it's not related to anything supernatural.
Quote:
*it bugs me how everyone thinks that we are all so god damn enlightened nowadays – bull crap, thousands are dieing of aid and starvation, and the best that people do about is type on the frigging internet, about how more sophisticated and intelligent we are all nowadays and how we have no need for a saviour/religion –if the bible is to subtle for you watch superman returns for Christ sake!
...weird behaviour? - as weird as everyone else’s? (but yeah you do get extremes, which is why you also have to live in the real world too)
Lovely argumentation there.
The_Raven on 17/12/2007 at 18:16
Quote:
"Science" (as opposed to "faith") has also been used to justify a fair number of now-reprehensible procedures - lobotomies, shock therapy, eugenics, etc...
Those are all good ideas, don't knock them. :mad: :mad: :mad:
This thread need more spaghetti.
fett on 17/12/2007 at 20:58
So, case in point, you guys see what I mean.
paloalto90 on 17/12/2007 at 21:45
Quote Posted by fett
So, case in point, you guys see what I mean.
Is this referring to Ravens post?
