Chimpy Chompy on 16/12/2007 at 22:49
Quote Posted by catbarf
If you want to believe in God, fine. I personally don't believe, but I respect your choice.
If you do respect that choice, you're already on a different wavelength to some of the Angry Atheists Kru.
As it happens though I'm not a believer. And I agree organised religion can pull lots of stupid shit. Fett explained pretty well how it can potentially mess with peoples' thought processes. But that's still some distance removed from an assertion that simple belief = mental illness.
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But the minute your choice starts to adversely affect me or anyone else, then there's a problem.
I was trying to be clear I agree with that sentiment myself.
catbarf on 16/12/2007 at 23:12
Oh, I see.
I just figure SD is a little annoyed about the fairies/God issue. He's got a very good point... but it's a little out of place.
Scots Taffer on 16/12/2007 at 23:17
Quote Posted by Fingernail
Sorry, where does it
actually say that?
Who says that? And why do they say it? Anyway, those passages are not specific about the hijab or burka or any other dress, just about the general principle of maintaining modesty.
Those quotes didn't say much about modesty from what I could see, it was a laundry list of orders about women being "covered up" (including their beauty, which could be taken to mean nearly everything so there's your hijab) around anyone who isn't on a specific list. I agree though that the punishment is left unspecified, which suits the agendas of those who dispense it.
fett on 16/12/2007 at 23:19
Quote Posted by Thirith
However, I absolutely see your points, fett, and how religion can easily be dangerously distorting for many people. Perhaps what helps me is that I can ascribe meaning to things, but I feel no need to comprehend this meaning. I don't believe I know God's mind, and I'm perfectly comfortable pulling a Job on God if things are shitty: "Fuck You, man! You may know why this is happening, and it may all be for the best in the long run, but right now it sucks, and don't You expect me to be grateful right here and now!"
I would even argue that biblical theology allows for, and even encourages this type of response. But as you say, the average Christian would be appalled by such a response, and anytime someone does respond to events in this way, they find themselves either ostracized, "encouraged" (read:admonished), or simply isolated in the honesty of their response. It's even more disturbing when you solve the problem yourself through either sacrifice, wits, or sheer strength of character and those same people give god all the credit for working the situation out. Again with the mental illness - imagine what this type of social environment does to an individual's self-image over the course of many years. Talk about a guilt complex, co-dependency, and OCD!
mopgoblin on 16/12/2007 at 23:46
Quote Posted by Chimpy Chompy
Of course religion pulls a lot of stupid shit, its excesses need to be slapped down if they conflict with basic human rights, and I'm worried myself about how well Islam can get on with the rest of civillisation.
Freedom of religion is usually taken to be one of those fundamental human rights, yet children are frequently raised to follow the same religion as their parents; even when this is not the case, they'll usually encounter some religions far more often than others in everyday life. Obviously this can have an effect on the child's choice of religion, sometimes so much so that it cannot reasonably be called a choice at all. This suggests that freedom of religion cannot truly exist unless religion only takes place in private, either on one's own or between consenting adults.
Fingernail on 17/12/2007 at 00:03
Quote Posted by Thirith
No, but it'd be a different discussion. This isn't a "death penalty - right or wrong?" thread.
Yeah but since it seems to be a "your culture is more barbaric than my culture nyah nyah" I thought I'd just weigh in on the "hey guys you know us up west aren't exactly doing the best we can"
I mean that's basically the discussion we are endlessly having right now - whether or not the Qu'ran encourages people one way or the other, basically there are moderate, tolerant people who make up the majority of any population, and then there are the messed-up fundamentalists who pull the wacko shit.
"Science" (as opposed to "faith") has also been used to justify a fair number of now-reprehensible procedures - lobotomies, shock therapy, eugenics, etc. But you know, it does a lot of good too.
Epos Nix on 17/12/2007 at 03:54
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In defense of SD (Oh god what has happened to me), I also believe it is a form of mental illness, or in the very least a very pervasive and dangerous brainwashing, and I say that from my own personal experience. Christianity teaches you to put a spin on just about everything - a spin that paints distortion over reality.
Are you sure it's Christianity that paints a spin on things and not our own egos?
If a fish were to suddenly become aware of his surroundings and inform all his fish buddies that they have been living in a fish bowl all this time, is it his fault that they can't grasp what exactly a 'fish bowl' actually is and how it relates to them? Is it his fault that he can only
describe the truth rather than actually show the truth to his fellow fish?
I personally do believe there is one ultimate Truth to all of reality, at least what we can perceive of it, and that figures like Christ and Buddha were among the few humans to have witnessed this Truth. The fact that they can only describe the Truth to us and perhaps give us a means of finding the Truth for ourselves should not invalidate their personal experiences in the least. It just means we have to bend our minds in ways nature didn't intend in order to perceive what they did.
Believing that an absolute Truth exists and that there may be a way of finding such should not be attributed to any sort of mental illness or delusion. If such were the case, all science and math would be immediately suspect, for if their methods are astronomy or quantum computing, introspection and self-realization are the methods of the religious-minded.
And if in the course of a person realizing him or herself that person suddenly finds that the best course of action in a situation that is out of their hands (ie. a loved one diagnosed with cancer) is to find the life-lesson in it all, I should think that is preferable to the person being grief-stricken and dropping into depression, or worse.
paloalto90 on 17/12/2007 at 05:12
Quote:
In defense of SD (Oh god what has happened to me), I also believe it is a form of mental illness, or in the very least a very pervasive and dangerous brainwashing, and I say that from my own personal experience. Christianity teaches you to put a spin on just about everything - a spin that paints distortion over reality.
.So now something that you personally didn't find any evidence for means that other people who find it valid means that they are brainwashed. According to that definition everything is brainwashing.Your disappointment with you own experience is obvious but if my bielefs are confirmed to me thay are just as valid as yours.
According to you then all attempts at culturation whether from religious or other sources is brainwashing.
You can't have real brainwashing without physical coercion.
Since a bielief in God and a bieleif that God does not exist are on equal footing evidence wise I can declare that the methods all atheists use to raise their children is brainwashing since I am in the God camp.
Whats next Mr. Dawkins?Commiting all people of religious faith to insane asylums? Is the Sermon on the Mount brainwashing not because of it's content but because there is no bielef in the supposed source from which it came!
Let it go man!
Thirith on 17/12/2007 at 10:47
Quote Posted by paloalto90
Since a bielief in God and a bieleif that God does not exist are on equal footing evidence wise I can declare that the methods all atheists use to raise their children is brainwashing since I am in the God camp.
But then, if you look at it like that, then what reason is there not to believe in the Pink Invisible Unicorn? I respect any reasons you may have to be a believer, since I am one too, but saying "No evidence for or against God, nyah nyah!" doesn't strike me as a terribly strong argument - unless you respect people who believe in the Pink Invisible Unicorn.
