SD on 16/12/2007 at 18:13
Talk to fairies, and you're a madman. Call your fairy God, raise temples to it, live your life a certain way because you think it's what your fairy would want, look down your nose at people who don't believe in your fairy - and you're a person to be respected.
So far as the rest of your post is concerned - well, it perfectly illustrates that while mankind might have evolved from the apes, some of us haven't evolved quite that far.
Anyway, I'm sick of these debates too, the whole world seems to have a collective brainfart where religion is concerned, and no amount of good sense can be talked into anyone. I'll just sit here in slence while mankind destroys itself over invisible sky wizards.
Chimpy Chompy on 16/12/2007 at 18:17
Well you're not going to have a lot of luck "talking sense" into people as long as you accuse them of being mentally ill.
Also I don't quite get the "god=fairies" bit. Some people feel the need to connect with something greater, the "divine" whatever that is. A sense of purpose behind the universe. You don't yourself, fine, spare me the BUT THEY'RE SO WRONG TO DO SO RARRG. But they do, and it's more logical to feel the need for that, than for a fairy in the garden.
Of course religion pulls a lot of stupid shit, its excesses need to be slapped down if they conflict with basic human rights, and I'm worried myself about how well Islam can get on with the rest of civillisation. But the Angry Atheists Kru's tactics suck, a lot of the time. And if your reply is some angry retort about "obviously anyone rational would agree with me that god is for stupid people" then that's just reinforcing the point, really.
Vasquez on 16/12/2007 at 18:22
There's no point trying to "talk sense" to someone who believes certain way, because it most likely doesn't work anyway - especially in religious matters, where everything really comes down to "But this is how I feel". And there wouldn't be a need to talk sense, if the believers wouldn't expect or even demand that others believe and worship the same fairy/ spirit/ deity /whatever as they do (I'm not talking about TTLGers, just generally).
Personally, I'm constantly amazed what a strong grip old superstitions have in modern world - not on personal level, but politically etc. But hey, thank God I live in a country where I can believe what I want, or not believe anything ;)
fett on 16/12/2007 at 18:47
In defense of SD (Oh god what has happened to me), I also believe it is a form of mental illness, or in the very least a very pervasive and dangerous brainwashing, and I say that from my own personal experience. Christianity teaches you to put a spin on just about everything - a spin that paints distortion over reality.
Now that I'm 3-4 years removed from that culture, I can look back and see how brainwashed I was. How else do you explain the Christian perspective on life:
*Your spouse is diagnosed with cancer, and you thank god for what he's trying to 'teach you' through this, ignoring the fact that the cancer victim is suffering, children/spouse will lose a parent/spouse, which causes a host of other problems, etc.
*Children are taught not to steal, kill, lie, etc. because it's a 'sin' - not because of the tangible, negative consequences that result from such behavior. Paul actually says in Romans, "All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable." In other words, if it weren't for God, I would and could do anything I damn well pleased, regardless of the effect on myself or my community. God is typically given as the sole reason for refraining from destructive behavior, with no thought to cultural or social implications.
*Cause and effect relationships are reversed, duplicated, or looped to always give God credit for good things, and absolve him of responsibility for bad things. Often, this same buck-passing transfers to the individual, which is where you get the crackpots that feel justified shooting abortion docs, drowning their kids, etc. If everything truly 'works together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose' (You get to decide what God's "purpose" is), then how can I go wrong? It's all going to work out for good in the end!
I could go on and on, but essentially, you tend to develop a mentality that nothing can be defined or explained outside of a christian cultural/biblical interpretation. People don't just get sick, or have accidents - there's always some mystical purpose for it, and I've watched several people literally go mad trying to discern this purpose. Simple geological and environmental events such as earthquakes, rain, snow, and even the temperature are ascribed a spiritual purpose when the need fits (i.e. "Well it rained today, so the Lord must have known Billy was too sick to go to the ball game. Now he can miss it without letting his team down). Any and every event in life *must* be ascribed some greater purpose for it to have any meaning at all. For me, this developed into a situation where I was so eternally minded, that I was missing the wonderful things going on around me. The Christians here will surely say, "But you were unbalanced - that's not the way God intends for us to live." I agree that scripturally that may be true, but in reality, it is nearly impossible to have a biblical mindset and not be given over to this type of thinking and behavior. Call it a fault of human nature, or the fault of the bible - either way it is a fucked up piece of business that destroys marriages, innocence, hope, and civil responsibility. (Do I sound like Dawkins now?)
As I stand at a distance from this culture in which I was solidly entrenched for so long, I would say that there is absolutely an element of mental illness that develops over time. Events take place around them, and they are affected by things that simply will not fit into their metaphysical framework, so the brain tries to find ways to explain the evidence of reality while still holding to this fantastical mental construct they've developed. Many end up not only unable to make sense of spiritual issues, but rendered impotent to control their own lives, make logical decisions, or function in a normal relationship that isn't steeped in bible-speak and spiritual justification of their (usually weird) behavior and thinking.
Thirith on 16/12/2007 at 19:13
I wonder whether that is also largely an 'organised religion' thing. I came to Christianity from the outside, and I interpret it largely differently for myself than the churches I know would. (Not so much the local protestant church, which is very academic and historically minded in its approach to the Bible and to its own faith.) In fact, most churches would probably disagree violently with my interpretations.
At the same time, I do think that my way of believing has made me a more balanced, more respectful person. I do believe that it's helped me cope with crap in my life (clinical depression, girlfriend getting cancer, losing my job) much better than, say, counselling or psychotropic drugs or indeed friends and family. At the same time, I've kept my (largely agnostic, sometimes atheist) friends and none of them have told me that I've become seriously deranged, so I guess that either my mental illness is very well hidden (mwahaha!) or my faith is a spiritual, mental and emotional support for me.
However, I absolutely see your points, fett, and how religion can easily be dangerously distorting for many people. Perhaps what helps me is that I can ascribe meaning to things, but I feel no need to comprehend this meaning. I don't believe I know God's mind, and I'm perfectly comfortable pulling a Job on God if things are shitty: "Fuck You, man! You may know why this is happening, and it may all be for the best in the long run, but right now it sucks, and don't You expect me to be greatful right here and now!"
catbarf on 16/12/2007 at 21:16
Great post, Fett.
Your religion is your own matter. But if your religion condones violence or similar behavior, then your religion is no defense.
Chimpy, that's SD's point. It's not just what you believe, but the very real consequences of your belief. If your religion tells you that killing someone is alright, then your religion should NOT be tolerated and should NOT be accepted. And, as Fett stated, even relatively benign religions can (keyword is CAN) have negative effects on people. If you want to believe in God, fine. I personally don't believe, but I respect your choice. But the minute your choice starts to adversely affect me or anyone else, then there's a problem. And that is the root of the matter here- when someone is murdered, and the murderer stands by his decision because of the murder.
Illuminatus, piss off. If you've got something to say then stop hiding behind PMs.
Fingernail on 16/12/2007 at 21:31
Your (the US) law says that killing is right in some circumstances; death penalties in certain states? Shouldn't we be removing planks from our own eyes, guys? It's equally barbaric, the only difference is how you define a capital offense.
heretic on 16/12/2007 at 21:47
Quote Posted by Fingernail
Your (the US) law says that killing is right in some circumstances; death penalties in certain states? Shouldn't we be removing planks from our own eyes, guys? It's equally barbaric, the only difference is how you define a capital offense.
So when was the last time us barbaric infidels strapped someone to ol' sparky for sagging their pants too low?
Kuuso on 16/12/2007 at 22:02
Quote Posted by heretic1dg
So when was the last time us barbaric infidels strapped someone to ol' sparky for sagging their pants too low?
So it wouldn't be a problem, if the father would have killed his daughter for killing someone instead of the hijab business?
Thirith on 16/12/2007 at 22:10
No, but it'd be a different discussion. This isn't a "death penalty - right or wrong?" thread.
