june gloom on 4/5/2009 at 18:14
If it matters that much to someone that I care if there's a God or not, then that's their problem, not mine. My not caring has nothing to do with them, it has everything to do with my not caring. I honestly don't give a shit what some complete stranger believes, why should they give a shit that I don't care one way or the other? I have more important things to worry about.
Papy on 5/5/2009 at 02:10
Quote Posted by Vasquez
If some religious person or raging atheist gets all huffy when s/he meets ONE person who simply doesn't give a shit, I think it's time to take a moment and think why the fuck it's so important to get validation from everyone.
I agree, but I certainly met my share of those people who overreact. I guess any unexpected behavior can upset people who are insecure.
BTW, I don't think there is a lot of people, particularly atheists, who will get upset because of someone not caring. Even though I'm a strong atheist, I know I wouldn't give a shit (unless the guy makes an obsession on his "not caring", repeat over and over, to a point where it become annoying proselytizing).
Quote Posted by dethtoll
If it matters
that much to someone that I care if there's a God or not, then that's
their problem, not mine.
Of course it's their (psychological) problem. I certainly wasn't trying to excuse them and put the blame on you, I was just giving a reason on why they react that way.
june gloom on 5/5/2009 at 03:09
Incidentally I run into fewer religious types getting upset over my apatheism than I do atheists who seem to think that by not caring whether or not there is a God somehow indicates that I believe in the possibility of there being one AND THAT'S WRONG LIGHT OF REASON LIGHT OF REASON RRRARRRRGH
That said, most of the atheists I know tend to be the kind for whom irreligion is a religion so maybe I'm just unlucky.
fett on 5/5/2009 at 03:42
That seems to be the only kind I meet too. They're almost as bad as the fundies I ran away from...
Vasquez on 5/5/2009 at 07:12
Quote Posted by Papy
I agree, but I certainly met my share of those people who overreact. I guess any unexpected behavior can upset people who are insecure.
Insecurity does include a huge amount of self-centeredness... Seems we're saying the same thing, only with a bit different words ;)
Papy on 5/5/2009 at 16:09
Quote Posted by dethtoll
That said, most of the atheists I know tend to be the kind for whom irreligion
is a religion so maybe I'm just unlucky.
Obviously, the atheists you know are as stupid as the religious people who think atheism is also a religion. Of course, the fact that you know they are atheists may be sign that they are kind of obsessed with it. We can know someone is religious even if he has the courtesy to shut up about it by some of his behavior or clothing, but the only way you can know someone is atheist is if he's one of those annoying people who are proselytizing (and who won't take "fuck off" for an answer). Most people who know me have no idea I'm an atheist, the same way I have no idea if they are themselves. I don't care and they don't care.
I guess, an explanation for your point of view might be the place you live. If someone lives in a place where religion is very strong (like the US, Israel or most Arab countries), maybe this can push him to rebel. He may seek to make his group bigger in order for his "rebellion" to succeed, and he may view someone who don't care as an easier win than a religious person. Have you asked those persons why they were atheists and why they wanted you to care?
Where I live, I'd say it's mostly the opposite. Except for the immigrant population, religion is now in serious decline. Churches are empty except for a few old people and for some special occasions. Openly saying you are religious is kind of frown upon. Of course, openly saying you are atheist is still considered as worse than openly saying you are religious, but, as everyone kind of shut up, no one will feel left out for being atheists. The result is, except for some pseudo intellectual idiots, I rarely saw an atheist who felt the need to proselytize. I never saw an atheist knocking at my door on a Saturday morning to talk to me about atheism (and if one ever do it, you can be sure I will insult him the best I can). I never saw a bumper sticker saying "there is no God". (BTW, this may change in the near future as Islam is now becoming very visible here. A few catholics are already becoming more radical, and this may also push atheists to fight for "their right". But for now, this is not the case.)
Of course, another explanation for your point of view about atheists may simply be the fact that you find someone talking about religion more acceptable, and so less noticeable, than someone talking about atheism.
fett on 5/5/2009 at 17:23
Quote Posted by Papy
I guess, an explanation for your point of view might be the place you live. If someone lives in a place where religion is very strong (like the US, Israel or most Arab countries), maybe this can push him to rebel.
This is the main problem for me right now. I live in the "Bible belt" and everyone just assumes that you're a christian, or at least are sympathetic to religious ideas. In this culture, atheism is thought to inherently embody all that is perverse and anti-American. Since I'm an atheist, I must by default be rabidly pro-choice (I'm not), in favor of gay marriage (I don't care), against the war in Iraq (I am), and teach my kids to have sex and do drugs at a young age. It's extremely difficult to have even casual relationships with people who are religious if you're not because they regard you with a great deal of suspicion that borders on fear. My wife owes a hospital two years here, then we're getting the hell out of dodge and moving some place where the brainwashing isn't so society-sanctioned.
Renzatic on 5/5/2009 at 17:25
Quote Posted by Papy
Of course, another explanation for your point of view about atheists may simply be the fact that you find someone talking about religion more acceptable, and so less noticeable, than someone talking about atheism.
I think the one thing that bothers me the most is the whole culture of victimhood angle that gets played far, far too often. This applies to people on both sides of the fence.
Vasquez on 5/5/2009 at 20:45
Quote Posted by Papy
the only way you can know someone is atheist is if he's one of those annoying people who are proselytizing (and who won't take "fuck off" for an answer).
What, you only talk about the new peanut butter brand with your friends? I think I know quite well the religious attitudes of my close friends, even some of the not-so-close acquaintances too, and I'm pretty sure they know mine - not from raging arguments, just from normal conversations.
(Although for some reason, I've been sometimes mistaken for an atheist.)
Papy on 6/5/2009 at 03:33
Quote Posted by Renzatic
I think the one thing that bothers me the most is the whole culture of victimhood angle that gets played far, far too often. This applies to people on both sides of the fence.
I kind of agree, but to quote Fett : "It's extremely difficult to have even casual relationships with people who are religious if you're not because they regard you with a great deal of suspicion that borders on fear". I absolutely don't feel persecuted where I live, but if I lived in Saudi Arabia, let's just say I would shut up and go to the mosque like everyone else.
Quote Posted by Vasquez
What, you only talk about the new peanut butter brand with your friends?
I lived in France and in Canada and let's just say that conversation are a lot more limited in Canada. Compared to the French, Canadians have some "difficulties" with differences of opinion on some subjects. As long as no one participating in the discussion is personally concerned then it's ok, we can talk about it, but otherwise the discussion will be avoided.
