fett on 2/5/2009 at 14:47
Anyone who uses that argument in a religion debate should rightfully come out looking like a complete idiot. Did it even occur to anyone that there was no such thing as a Christian when Deuteronomy was written? All the rest of this with evil forces, telepathy, magical trees, and talking snakes is strawman crap that has nothing to do with anything.
Not that the entire premise isn't ridiculous to being with.
Vasquez on 3/5/2009 at 08:57
Quote Posted by fett
Did it even occur to anyone that there was no such thing as a Christian when Deuteronomy was written?
Christianity still keeps Old Testament as a part of it's most important book. I would hope all that sacrifice etc. crap was kept as a warning example (see, this is how God does NOT want you to do), but I'm under impression this isn't so.
Quote Posted by fett
All the rest of this with evil forces, telepathy, magical trees, and talking snakes is strawman crap that has nothing to do with anything.
But it's hilarious :joke: And how it has nothing to do with anything? Personally, I find it very strange that simple "Because it hurts others" isn't enough of a reasoning not to steal, kill or whatever. But it probably takes a bit more brain power to actually imagine oneself in the part of the victim, so perhaps it is easier to go with the "Because God says don't".
Would be even nicer if it actually worked.
Muzman on 3/5/2009 at 09:40
"God says" is a pretty effective way to end a lot of debates into the minutiae of interpretation in law and morals and things though. Shifts the conflict to something else besides a mere individual battle or internal supposition of the feelings of others.
I find these attempts to really 'get' religion through following its moral logic a bit wanting though. That's part of it; the need for abstract authority. But there's other things as well.
I remember years ago Grundy putting forward what is basically the trancendentalist apologetics, which kinda say that you can't even have morals and logic without some sort of external absolute authority behind it all. (that's not how they'd characterise it, of course. There is a god as far as they're concerned, it's the illogic of denying it they're interested in as much as anything else). And I sorta see their point. Not in the way they'd find satisfactory, but still...
It's like flaws or limits of human consciousness leave something missing that must be accounted for or filled. I suspect people will always have this and organise around an assumed understanding of it. It's more surprising, after some reflection, that many people appear not to feel any need for such things. So most of the things people characterise it as, the unimaginability of death - authority indoctrination - delusions - stupidity - the sheer power of seeing other people believe something with total conviction, don't really explain or dismiss religion by themselves. It's all of that and then some.
fett on 3/5/2009 at 14:39
Quote Posted by Vasquez
Christianity still keeps Old Testament as a part of it's most important book. I would hope all that sacrifice etc. crap was kept as a warning example (see, this is how God does NOT want you to do), but I'm under impression this isn't so.
They retain the OT because it's considered cannon, and some of the right wing crazies like to pull passages from it to justify burning witches and such, but I would estimate that the average Christian understands that the sole reason for 100% of the OT "laws," from not eating pork all the way up to genocide was to preserve Israel's national identity, health, posterity, and culture. Using OT laws to point out how outdated it's principles are is only proving the point. These are strawman arguments because even orthodox Jews know they were to be observed for a specific time in history, and to be symbolic thereafter. So running around saying, "huur hurr, burn anyone who's not a christian," not only makes the atheist look stupid, it bypasses the larger dangers of the religion for minutiae that isn't even taken seriously by the average believer.
Quote:
But it's hilarious :joke: And how it has nothing to do with anything? Personally, I find it very strange that simple "Because it hurts others" isn't enough of a reasoning not to steal, kill or whatever. But it probably takes a bit more brain power to actually imagine oneself in the part of the victim, so perhaps it is easier to go with the "Because God says don't".
Would be even nicer if it actually worked.
It
is very strange and scary too, and I sincerely believe that in some quarters, the only thing holding some of these people back from being homicidal baby-rapers is the threat of divine vengeance. At the same time, debating any intelligent Christian by scoffing about Eve being "made from a rib" (which isn't what you think it means) and Jesus "being his own father," oversimplify doctrines that any intelligent believer has long ago come to terms with. A believer will read that paragraph and automatically assume this individual hasn't bothered to legitimately investigate Christian doctrine at all, and therefore will dismiss the whole thing for what it is - a joke. It has nothing to do with anything because it doesn't actually attack the heart of what is wrong and harmful about the belief system.
But you're exactly right - "Because it hurts others" ought to be enough. I'd like to think it would be for many of them if they would step out from under all the other bullshit they've had to build up to justify being a decent human being.
catbarf on 3/5/2009 at 15:36
Quote Posted by fett
and therefore will dismiss the whole thing for what it is - a joke.
Good. It wasn't meant to be dead serious, I think everyone here can see that it's a massive simplification of a rather complicated belief system. I suppose my point was less 'Which makes more sense?' and more 'Which gets the point across without needing to prop up a ton of other easily misinterpreted/abused stuff?'
Quote Posted by fett
But you're exactly right - "Because it hurts others" ought to be enough. I'd like to think it would be for many of them if they would step out from under all the other bullshit they've had to build up to justify being a decent human being.
And on the flip side, it pisses me off when I'm told that as an atheist, I'm dangerous because I have no moral guidelines.
Personally, I'd rather be a good person because I choose to be, and not out of fear of punishment. I don't believe that a just and loving god would condemn me for that.
Papy on 3/5/2009 at 16:13
Quote Posted by fett
I sincerely believe that in some quarters, the only thing holding some of these people back from being homicidal baby-rapers is the threat of divine vengeance.
I don't think so. A few people do base their moral system solely on a god, but that's because they learned to focus their attention on this single point and ignore everything else. If there was no religion, those same people would have based their moral system on something else, most probably on people around them. It wouldn't be "God" who would hold them back, but the rest of their society.
The idea of gods is somewhat natural. Gods are explanations for things people don't understand, so they can move on. This believe in gods may even be a natural selection advantage. But now, religion is first and foremost about a way to escape reality and the threat of punishment from other people. Because of that, it seems obvious to me people find the threat of divine vengeance less fearful than the threat of vengeance from society. The threat of divine vengeance may hold those people back, but if there was no religion the threat of other people vengeance would hold them back even more.
Vasquez on 3/5/2009 at 19:32
Quote Posted by fett
It has nothing to do with anything because it doesn't actually attack the heart of what is wrong and harmful about the belief system.
Well, to my experience it's pointless to even try and seriously attack someone's religious beliefs with any kind of reason. The thing is, they don't
need logic because everything keeps looping back to "Because God/Holy Book says so".
If you can't fight it - joke about it ;)
june gloom on 3/5/2009 at 19:37
If you hate being attacked for being an atheist, and religious folk dislike being attacked for being religious, try this on for size: I can't mention that I'm an apatheist- i.e. someone who neither believes nor disbelieves and doesn't care one way or the other- without atheists and believers going apeshit. A sentiment like "the question of God is not important to me" pisses basically everyone off. It's like, you can believe in God, or you can not believe, but if you genuinely don't care you're this great big pariah just begging to be proselytized to. It's like these people can't handle that someone- horror of horrors- doesn't care enough to take a side.
AR Master on 3/5/2009 at 19:45
hay i havent read the thread at all but have we move away from how some savage stangled his daughter in the name of allah to hating on kkkristians yet
Vasquez on 3/5/2009 at 20:55
Quote Posted by dethtoll
I can't mention that I'm an apatheist- i.e. someone who neither believes nor disbelieves
and doesn't care one way or the other- without atheists and believers going
apeshit.
But that's just silly (of them, not you)! :) Unless, of course, you try to force-feed your apatheist views on others ;)
