Thirith on 22/12/2007 at 08:59
I'd imagine that it's easier to be coming to religion (or perhaps rather faith) from the other side; as I've mentioned before, I started out as an agnostic but have come to some sort of religious belief (that doesn't really fit in with most organised religion, mind you) over the last 4-5 years. And I do believe that it has helped me, whether God exists (which I believe, but I'm fairly comfortable having doubts about the specifics - addressing doubts is an important part of belief for me) or whether it's a handy intellectual construct that helps me deal with things. That way, you don't get the disillusionment with the "ground crew", as a friend of mine refers to the churches.
(Quick edit: fett, what you say about moving away from faith and feeling liberated - in some ways I did feel the same moving towards faith. I'm not saying this as some sort of argument for people converting, but more because what you've said made me aware of it again. Again, it helps that I'm not embedded in a framework of organised religion in any way, though.)
fett on 22/12/2007 at 14:50
Another thought that might be helpful - I didn't come from a dysfunctional background. My parents are still married, there was no abuse of any kind in my home. Hell, I don't think I even watched an R-rated movie until I went to college. My parents didn't shelter me (and for the record, are very nominal Christians - never took me to church or anything), but we had a kind of Leave It To Beaver household.
So I think for people who've been rejected a lot, or traumatized in some way, the concept of a heavenly Father who loves them unconditionally and will forgive any wrong is very attractive. For people who grew up with a home life like mine, it's not such a big deal. My wife's family was much the same. Actually for us, listening to 'christian rock' and me growing my hair long/playing music was a bit of a way to rebel - like Stitch touched on, the 'warrior for good' was the lure for me.
Many of that traits that Jesus sought to instill in people (via the Holy Spirit) can apparently be instilled in other ways. Yet the Bible teaches that we are all sinful and there is nothing good in us. I disagree now. Part of my de-conversion was due to knowing many honorable atheists whom I envied for their integrity, and knowing many horrible vindictive Christians who wouldn't man up and take responsibility for their actions.
As I considered the Christians I knew, I had to wonder if they wouldn't be just exactly who they are if they'd never become Christians. I think they'd be the same. Those with kind, gentle, and loving personalities would naturally be that way because of their upbringing and the genetic influence of their parents. I look at my own kids - the bible teaches that we inherit a 'sin nature' from our parents. While pastors and teachers are quick to point out that no one has to teach children how to lie or be selfish (sin qualities), they also fail to point out that they can be suprisingly selfless and honest ('holy' qualities). There's nothing spiritual about it. It's environment and genetics. I now believe the same thing is true for adults.
Thirith on 22/12/2007 at 15:15
Quote Posted by fett
As I considered the Christians I knew, I had to wonder if they wouldn't be just exactly who they are if they'd never become Christians. I think they'd be the same. Those with kind, gentle, and loving personalities would naturally be that way because of their upbringing and the genetic influence of their parents. I look at my own kids - the bible teaches that we inherit a 'sin nature' from our parents. While pastors and teachers are quick to point out that no one has to teach children how to lie or be selfish (sin qualities), they also fail to point out that they can be suprisingly selfless and honest ('holy' qualities). There's nothing spiritual about it. It's environment and genetics. I now believe the same thing is true for adults.
Can I give a slight counter-perspective on that - not so much to disagree (because I don't), but just to show that it can be somewhat different for some people? I don't think I became a fundamentally different, more decent person after my drawn-out 'conversion' (I'm not even sure I'd call it that, because it lacks any of those showy, flashy "I've just been touched by God, and now I'm born again!!!!!1!1" elements). What it did do for me was this: before I wouldn't really have thought twice about little lies, small moments of selfishness. I would have just told myself, "Well, I'm human, so I can afford to do that. It's only natural." I don't do this any more. It's not that I no longer lie or that I've dropped all selfishness, definitely not - but I no longer let things slip because it doesn't matter, because I'm only human, because it's easier, more comfortable. I do think that I've become less indulgent towards myself. That doesn't mean that I beat myself up for everything I do that is cowardly or selfish - it's just that I try to be honest about it. "If I lie now, it's simply because it's easier", that sort of thing.
Again, on a practical level this has little to nothing to do with whether God exists or not (metaphysics may be another matter), but I do think I have become more focused on doing what I believe is right rather than doing what is right as long as it isn't too hard.
By the way, fett: thanks for all your posts in this thread. I do believe the world would be better if there were fewer idiots proclaiming to be Christians and more people like you.
paloalto90 on 22/12/2007 at 15:40
Quote Posted by fett
Another thought that might be helpful - I didn't come from a dysfunctional background. My parents are still married, there was no abuse of any kind in my home. Hell, I don't think I even watched an R-rated movie until I went to college. My parents didn't shelter me (and for the record, are very nominal Christians - never took me to church or anything), but we had a kind of Leave It To Beaver household.
So I think for people who've been rejected a lot, or traumatized in some way, the concept of a heavenly Father who loves them unconditionally and will forgive any wrong is very attractive. For people who grew up with a home life like mine, it's not such a big deal. My wife's family was much the same. Actually for us, listening to 'christian rock' and me growing my hair long/playing music was a bit of a way to rebel - like Stitch touched on, the 'warrior for good' was the lure for me.
Many of that traits that Jesus sought to instill in people (via the Holy Spirit) can apparently be instilled in other ways. Yet the Bible teaches that we are all sinful and there is nothing good in us. I disagree now. Part of my de-conversion was due to knowing many honorable atheists whom I envied for their integrity, and knowing many horrible vindictive Christians who wouldn't man up and take responsibility for their actions.
As I considered the Christians I knew, I had to wonder if they wouldn't be just exactly who they are if they'd never become Christians. I think they'd be the same. Those with kind, gentle, and loving personalities would naturally be that way because of their upbringing and the genetic influence of their parents. I look at my own kids - the bible teaches that we inherit a 'sin nature' from our parents. While pastors and teachers are quick to point out that no one has to teach children how to lie or be selfish (sin qualities), they also fail to point out that they can be suprisingly selfless and honest ('holy' qualities). There's nothing spiritual about it. It's environment and genetics. I now believe the same thing is true for adults.
Do you think it might have been a way of showing you how not to approach God?You seemed to question the way people were applying the teachings but now have thrown out God lock stock and barrel.
Epos Nix on 22/12/2007 at 15:57
Quote:
Many of that traits that Jesus sought to instill in people (via the Holy Spirit) can apparently be instilled in other ways.
Out of curiosity and from your standpoint, what
is the Holy Spirit? What is God? And what's with this Heaven thing? When reading the Bible did these terms ever scream out and define themselves in your mind, regardless of what popular opinion says they are?
catbarf on 22/12/2007 at 16:01
Quote Posted by Thirith
Can I give a slight counter-perspective on that - not so much to disagree (because I don't), but just to show that it can be somewhat different for some people? I don't think I became a fundamentally different, more decent person after my drawn-out 'conversion' (I'm not even sure I'd call it that, because it lacks any of those showy, flashy "I've just been touched by God, and now I'm born again!!!!!1!1" elements). What it did do for me was this: before I wouldn't really have thought twice about little lies, small moments of selfishness. I would have just told myself, "Well, I'm human, so I can afford to do that. It's only natural." I don't do this any more. It's not that I no longer lie or that I've dropped all selfishness, definitely not - but I no longer let things slip because it doesn't matter, because I'm only human, because it's easier, more comfortable. I do think that I've become less indulgent towards myself. That doesn't mean that I beat myself up for everything I do that is cowardly or selfish - it's just that I try to be honest about it. "If I lie now, it's simply because it's easier", that sort of thing.
On the other hand, there's people who will say 'It's okay, everything will work out, God loves me'. Anyone who uses their belief system as a way to excuse negative decisions isn't a stable person, and they exist on both sides of the fence. An atheist won't say, 'It's okay, I'm only human'. A stable atheist will say, 'I'm only human, so I should strive to be as best I can be'.
Thirith on 22/12/2007 at 16:21
I don't think "stable" is enough to cover it. Personally, if a person strives towards being fundamentally decent (what exactly defines decency may be material for a different thread), I don't care what sort of idea, belief or construct they follow to get there. "Striving to be the best you can be" is an ethical decision, and as such it goes beyond the strictly material: it has a metaphysical component, I'd argue. Whether you acknowledge (or believe) that or not, whether you call this component God or not - I honestly don't see what difference it makes, as long as it helps you to get closer to "being the best you can be".
paloalto90 on 22/12/2007 at 17:33
Quote Posted by Thirith
I don't think "stable" is enough to cover it. Personally, if a person strives towards being fundamentally decent (what exactly defines decency may be material for a different thread), I don't care what sort of idea, belief or construct they follow to get there. "Striving to be the best you can be" is an ethical decision, and as such it goes beyond the strictly material: it has a metaphysical component, I'd argue. Whether you acknowledge (or believe) that or not, whether you call this component God or not - I honestly don't see what difference it makes, as long as it helps you to get closer to "being the best you can be".
But an atheist and a God bieliever have a different idea of what they potentially can be.An atheist can become the best human being he can be while depending on the religious belief you can regain a state of perfection you once had,expand the field of consciousness you have control over,end your suffering ,or no longer have to reincarnate etc.etc.etc.
Raven on 22/12/2007 at 17:50
Fett - sorry i can't be more in depth just now and I havn't read the other posts since.
Very interesting perspective, unfortunately that sounds totaly like your own take on things. I am not sure what you were expecting to find from Christianity, but the best that you could ever hope for is to live your life. I suppose that it could be seen (and I wonder how much you have considered it this perspective) that in a truely Christian life no one ever said that it was suppose to be "easy" to try and live like Christ, and no one said that your reward would be in this life.
This life is horrible - people suffer and are in pain, and this is how the majority of people live their life. They still have joy in their life - but in the west we live vastily different and "privileged" lifes - are you really surprised that bible study groups and attempts to live like a biblical Jesus were not totally fullfilling in the current western societies. Anyway - sorry if this is incoherent - but again, thank you for the perspective.
fett on 22/12/2007 at 18:40
Quote Posted by Epos Nix
Out of curiosity and from your standpoint, what
is the Holy Spirit? What is God? And what's with this Heaven thing? When reading the Bible did these terms ever scream out and define themselves in your mind, regardless of what popular opinion says they are?
Without getting into semantics, let's just say that I defined those things by study of the language, context, and traditional interpretation handed down by the apostles. My experience is Judeo-christian so trying to define those things outside of the biblical context wouldn't have made much sense at the time.
As for all of you who mean well by pointing out that my experience is subjective, I agree. I was neither looking for perfection, but evidence that a relationship with God actually changes people. In my relatively vast, yet subjective experience, I failed to find any such evidence, and therefore refuse to waste any more time pursuing it. Additionally, my long posts only deal with the experiential reasons for my rejection of biblical spirituality. I haven't even touched on the inherent theological problems I kept coming up against, even with my substantial grasp of the discipline. Original sin, the origins of Zionism, God's 'permissive' vs. 'absolute' will, predestination vs. free will, etc. When most folks bang on about the 'contradictions in the bible' they're referring to historical and grammatical issues that are not really contradictions. My issues are of a philosophical nature, and most can't be resolved without deferring to the "paradoxes help to maintain philosophical tension" bag which is IMO a fancy way of saying something makes no fucking sense.
Keep in mind, I haven't rejected biblical spirituality because someone hurt my feelings, or because no one could explain where Cain's wife came from. I've devoted the better part of my life to trying to reconcile biblical concepts with actual experience - which the bible itself claims I should be able to do without much difficulty - and simply could not do it. This goes for issues related directly to personal experience as well as observing literally hundreds of people in a variety of settings, both Stateside and in 2nd-3rd world countries, wealthy, poor and in-between.
