Rug Burn Junky on 20/12/2007 at 17:44
Quote Posted by Stitch
inability to recognize the difference between "there is no concrete evidence of god" and "there is no god."
But that's not it at all. "Concrete" evidence is a bit high of a standard, the modern atheists simply recognize that there is no evidence of god, period. Since any argument about god's existence is necessarily going to fall to inductive reasoning, that
is functionally the same as saying "there is no god."
Quote Posted by fett
It just doesn't stand up to the rigors of actual human experience.
As I just said, inductive reasoning. When it repeatedly fails to stand up to the real world, those who recognize the failure have every reason to view those who don't as simply engaging in flawed reasoning or interpretation.
Stitch on 20/12/2007 at 17:52
Quote Posted by Rug Burn Junky
But that's not it at all. "Concrete" evidence is a bit high of a standard, the modern atheists simply recognize that there is no evidence of god, period.
I'd be inclined to agree, but good luck defending a stance like that against any well-armed true believer.
Rug Burn Junky on 20/12/2007 at 18:00
Well, that's why I've largely given up on that, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to root for lightning rods like Dawkins, even if I don't necessarily agree with him all the time.
Also, I think one of the traps that people fall into when discussing Dawkins is to believe that his audience is those whom he is debating. I don't think he realistically ever believes he'll sway a true believer.
His goal is to make those who are already atheists more resolute, and provide a safe harbor for those who are on the fence - by giving voice to atheism and making it more visible, it becomes less problematic for people to identify with it. He takes th extreme position, enabling others to fill in the gaps with more vocal, but less strident, expressions.
Muzman on 20/12/2007 at 18:20
Yeah that's true actually; atheism has usually had that bad rep as being an unreasonable or closed minded position that people shouldn't take on principle, even if they don't believe in god. But debate around this stuff lately has made a few people I've met say "I don't beleive in god and I don't think you can prove to me god exists in any sensible definition of "proof" or "existence" so...I'm an Atheist", which is probably better than a lot of politely quiet fence sitting.
Gingerbread Man on 20/12/2007 at 18:34
Atheists are fragmenting into denominations.
This is why I have decided to describe my own position as apatheist. I don't know, I don't really care, and I don't want to be associated with the New Atheism which clearly believes it has to be as rabid and fundamentalist as its opponents.
Epos Nix on 20/12/2007 at 18:57
Quote:
When it repeatedly fails to stand up to the real world, those who recognize the failure have every reason to view those who don't as simply engaging in flawed reasoning or interpretation.
Then again, is it any wonder that religion fails to accomplish its task in the mockery of 'society' mankind has made for himself? Man was never meant to live as he does now! We have thrust upon ourselves so much unnatural burden in the pursuit of riches that the very way we live is totally contrary to anything ANY religion says is correct. How can anyone in modern society expect to have any hope of living a Christ-like life when Christ himself had no possessions?
There is a very particular reason why corner-stone figures in history, among them Buddha and Ghandi, abandoned their wealth and family in order to pursue a religious life. Naturally this is not a course everyone has the will-power or means to undertake, but the main point is that you can't expect religion to prosper in an environment filled to overflowing with human greed and arrogance.
fett on 20/12/2007 at 19:24
Epos - do you realize you've blamed everything from society to pet dander for religion's failure to function in the real world? Is it possible that the common denominator in all these scenarios is um...religion?
Would it help that I actually DID sell all my earthly positions and went to work for a Christian Commune back in '96? I was the resident pastor for Project Peace on Earth that worked with juvenile offenders. I literally owned my guitar, a few books, and some credit card debt. I lived in the loft of a barn with no air or heat for 2 years and didn't see a Wal-mart during that entire period.
IT STILL DIDN'T WORK.
Rug Burn Junky on 20/12/2007 at 19:44
Quote Posted by Epos Nix
Then again, is it any wonder that religion fails to accomplish its task in the mockery of 'society' mankind has made for himself? Man was never meant to live as he does now! We have thrust upon ourselves so much unnatural burden in the pursuit of riches that the very way we live is totally contrary to anything ANY religion says is correct. How can anyone in modern society expect to have any hope of living a Christ-like life when Christ himself had no possessions?
There is a very particular reason why corner-stone figures in history, among them Buddha and Ghandi, abandoned their wealth and family in order to pursue a religious life. Naturally this is not a course everyone has the will-power or means to undertake, but the main point is that you can't expect religion to prosper in an environment filled to overflowing with human greed and arrogance.
By that token then, religion can only prosper in a primitive, superstitious society where people live in caves and barely subsist. Those corner-stone figures in history also didn't do anything to support themselves, be it creating their own shelter, disposing of their waste, or obtaining their own nourishment. Do you want a society where everything falls apart as everybody struggles to obtain nirvana and nobody bothers to waste their time farming? Or a society where the enlightened few walk around blissfully in their stylish robes, while an oppressed underclass works to keep them happily praying?*
No thanks.
As pessimistic as your view of modern society is, it has a hell of a lot more going for it than simply "greed and arrogance."
*ie. Tibet
paloalto90 on 20/12/2007 at 20:00
Quote Posted by fett
Epos - do you realize you've blamed everything from society to pet dander for religion's failure to function in the real world? Is it possible that the common denominator in all these scenarios is um...religion?
Would it help that I actually DID sell all my earthly positions and went to work for a Christian Commune back in '96? I was the resident pastor for Project Peace on Earth that worked with juvenile offenders. I literally owned my guitar, a few books, and some credit card debt. I lived in the loft of a barn with no air or heat for 2 years and didn't see a Wal-mart during that entire period.
IT STILL DIDN'T WORK.
What would have manifested if it did work?
Mingan on 20/12/2007 at 20:20
The rhetoric of that question is so out there it's useless to answer.
MAYBE THE SKY WOULD'VE FALLEN.
