paloalto90 on 19/12/2007 at 15:33
It is interesting to look at the process that priests go through before performing an exorcism.Determing whether the phenomena could be due to mental illness or metaphysical causes.
From a point of proving metaphysical realities it is hard to explain the phenomena reported in documented countless cases,such as defenestration,the moving of objects by themselves the victim/demon knowing intimate details of the priests life in order shake their confidence.Pretty compelling proof for the existence of the "dark side" of extraphysical reality.This in reference to people bieleving in more than the physical world being delusional.
Epos Nix on 19/12/2007 at 16:46
Perhaps anyone who professes to have all the answers and is therefore qualified to label others as mentally-ill are themselves self-delusional and/or mentally-ill?
paloalto90 on 19/12/2007 at 16:58
Quote Posted by Epos Nix
Perhaps
anyone who professes to have all the answers and is therefore qualified to label others as mentally-ill are themselves self-delusional and/or mentally-ill?
Yeah.There is a difference between ,"hey I tried it and it didn't work for me, versus attacking other peoples bielefs as delusional and without substance.
Thirith on 19/12/2007 at 17:36
Again: where do you draw the line between tolerating the beliefs of others and condoning shitty things done in the name of other ideologies? Personally, I feel very comfortable condoning certain practices, even if they're (supposedly) central to other people's beliefs... and in doing so, I am criticising their beliefs, or at least their interpretation thereof.
Sure, you could say there's a difference between tolerating beliefs and tolerating actions - but if you tolerate any belief but draw a line at the sort of behaviour the belief demands of its followers, can you really be said to be tolerating that belief?
SubJeff on 19/12/2007 at 18:27
Quote Posted by Thirith
If I understand your post correctly, you infuse love with metaphysical meaning.
You don't.
Quote Posted by paloalto90
There is a difference between ,"hey I tried it and it didn't work for me, versus attacking other peoples bielefs as delusional and without substance.
Expunge this nonsense from your mind now. There is no need for someone to experience something to make judgment of it when reason will give you an answer. That's part of the point of experience; you don't NEED to
actually experience everything because you can draw on your own experiences and come to a sensible conclusion. One hot thing burns like a mofo just as much as another and so on.
Quote Posted by Epos Nix
Perhaps
anyone who professes to have all the answers and is therefore qualified to label others as mentally-ill are themselves self-delusional and/or mentally-ill?
Perhaps this is dull highschool stoner "philosophy". Wait. Wait. One minute. Yep, yep it is. Whilst it is entirely possible there comes a point when you just have to say no and get on with intelligent debate.
fett on 19/12/2007 at 19:08
Well sure, I'm not qualified at all to asses someone's mental health. I can only say that in my experience (which I feel is quite extensive) with Christians, and having been one, that the behaviors and views often appear as a type of mental illness to me. There are extreme obsessions, self-deception about the reality of actual events (this is more from the Christian Science and Pentecostal quarters), and rampant unchecked emotion that mirrors certain types of behavior we would normally label 'insane'.
Who said, "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results"? That's what I've seen in so many cases where I've counseled marriages, families, etc. Biblical 'solutions' don't work, yet we keep trying them over and over, which in reality only exacerbates the problem because it adds to the frustration.
I should also qualify my view of 'mentally ill' - I wouldn't say most religious people are mentally ill in the sense that they can't function in society or are a danger to themselves/others. By 'mentally ill' I mean that there are certain behaviors that would only be considered 'sane' within the context of Church life and relationships, but otherwise, would be good cause to advise therapy.
Stitch on 19/12/2007 at 19:20
Quote Posted by paloalto90
If I do have a soul,part spirit, wrapped in biological material the soul component isn't going to be satisfied with a state of existence which is alien to it's nature,and has memories of living in perfection of the spiritual realms.After I have had many lives and I have swam in all the rivers and sat on all the mountains and my soul asks is there something more I should give up my search and just let things vegetate?I search out of a need to know.
Perhaps this world is enough for you.Fine for you.It isn't for me. Why should this upset you?
It doesn't, of course. This JOURNEY OF THE SOUL you like to write about while pantsless is all well and fine, and something I'd assume everyone goes through to some degree.
I just find the personalized god concept to be remarkably silly.
Epos Nix on 19/12/2007 at 20:54
Quote:
Whilst it is entirely possible there comes a point when you just have to say no and get on with intelligent debate.
So you're leaving the thread then? ;)
Really though, saying that someone can make a reasonable judgment of another's experience through reason alone is silly. While a hot thing may burn like a mofo, try explaining to someone who has never touched something hot what exactly it feels like. Its not so simple then! What you are calling 'reason' is merely your preconceived notions on matters and are based wholly in the land of opinion rather than anything factual, especially concerning religion.
Quote:
Biblical 'solutions' don't work, yet we keep trying them over and over, which in reality only exacerbates the problem because it adds to the frustration.
"Those who have an ear, let them hear."
I believe those were Jesus's words.
A prerequisite of understanding religion is a certain amount of wisdom. You don't look to the Bible for your answers, you look for the wisdom within yourself which the Bible can help cultivate.
fett on 19/12/2007 at 21:21
Exactly! The problem occurs when Christians look to the Bible for ALL answers as the book itself says they should do (and I would argue from a church history standpoint that Jesus even commanded this himself, but that's too long to go into here). There is very little 'looking inside' unless it pertains to hidden sin. Introspection and concept of 'self' is condemned because 'there is nothing good in me' (Paul). The dicotomy between the way the human psyche actually works, and the way the bible says it should work (for a believer) can lead to incredible mental and moral anguish.
Epos - I think I understand where our miscommunication is as I look back over these posts. It seems that your image of religious people is a bit different from my experience. I'm not talking about folks who casually go to church and pick bits and parts of the bible to live by. I'm talking about folks who adhere to a literal interpretation and rigid fundamental application of the bible's teachings. I thought that was the context of the conversation because of the Islamic fundamentalist issue in the OP. I may be reading you wrong (and if so, carry on), but I wanted to touch on that to make sure we're on the same page here.
SubJeff on 19/12/2007 at 21:33
Quote Posted by Epos Nix
saying that someone can make a reasonable judgment of another's experience through reason alone is silly.
Within context it is perfectly acceptable and sensible. There are always exceptions of course.
Quote:
What you are calling 'reason' is merely your preconceived notions on matters and are based wholly in the land of opinion rather than anything factual, especially concerning religion.
Which is the problem with religion - there are no facts. There is nothing you can really demonstrate outside of expression of your own personal zeal.
This doesn't mean that any religious belief that you may care to adhere to is not suitable for analysis. The reason people are so ready to adhere to some (Christ is Lord) and not others (Half Life 2 was a gift from God via Valve, the electronic pipeline to the Godmind) is just the degree of penetrance within their culture.
I knew a Greek guy who was convinced that a Zionist (or Zionista) is a devil worshiper because within his particular Orthodox church this idea is highly prevelant and apparently his (now saved) uncle used to be one. He had never heard of the word used in conjunction with Israel and flat out rejected any notion that Zionism had anything to do with anything other than Satanism, despite me providing evidence to the contrary. It's just the pervading idea amongst these people.
Again, we're just going down the boring old route of "how do you know YOU aren't wrong, nyah nyah, perhaps it's the PSYCHIATRISTS who are all mad".
