ercles on 15/12/2007 at 06:46
Rather than tacking this onto the lengthy debate over how horrible Muslim extremists are, I thought I'd throw (
http://www.nationalpost.com/story.html?id=159480) this one out there to see what the fine people of ttlg thought. Essentially, daughter wants to be rebellious and attractive and shuns wearing a hijab, and father supposedly strangles her to death. The Islamic community have, whilst condemning the actions of both father and brother (who tried to protect his dad from the police), tried to portray this as more of a rebellious teenager thing rather than a religious issue. That is to say that think that this is a struggle common to many cultures that is getting demonised by the media.
Whilst I honestly see where they are coming from, especially considering there is certainly no cultures that could claim they are free of teen-angst issues, this is the first time I have personally heard of a kid being killed by their parents over a religious issue.
Do you reckon it is fair to say this is a usual issue that is having a religious twist put on it, or should we be stepping in when children are killed over religious beliefs?
heretic on 15/12/2007 at 06:53
Quote Posted by ercles
The Islamic community have, whilst condemning the actions of both father and brother (who tried to protect his dad from the police), tried to portray this as more of a rebellious teenager thing rather than a religious issue. That is to say that think that this is a struggle common to many cultures that is getting demonised by the media.
That alone speaks volumes, no?
...If strangling your own children doesn't qualify for media attention then what does FFS...
Morte on 15/12/2007 at 07:44
Seems more like a honor killing than anything else to me, which is an issue with patriarchicalism rather than religion given that it's occuring in Christian and Sikh backwaters as well.
scumble on 15/12/2007 at 09:34
Yes, it is definitely down to asserting control over someone else's existence, particularly women. I tend to think it's only an extreme manifestation of milder forms of female oppression that still exist everywhere it seems - certainly in the supposed developed world it hasn't really disappeared and men still dominate in positions of authority.
Vasquez on 15/12/2007 at 10:19
Oh, it was just because the teenager was acting up against parents? Well that makes it all right then.
SD on 15/12/2007 at 12:45
Quote Posted by ercles
Do you reckon it is fair to say this is a usual issue that is having a religious twist put on it, or should we be stepping in when children are killed over religious beliefs?
The problem is we're told we should respect religious belief rather than acknowledge it as the mental illness that it is. Regardless of the rights and wrongs of murdering your own daughter, so far as this guy's belief system is concerned, he behaved appropriately. So how can we criticise him for acting according to his beliefs when we've told him his beliefs are okay?
I don't want to single out Islam here, because they're all, at root, as bad as each other, but this is, supposedly, a religion of peace - or at least that's what our government leaders tell us. Yet every single school of Islam mandates that a person who leaves the faith should be killed. This is an absolutely explicit, non-negotiable part of the faith. So why are we in the liberal West affording respect to this sort of thing in the first place? These faiths are utterly abhorrent and go against everything we hold dear.
So long as we pussyfoot around the issue and make the most heinous, medieval, unreconstructed religious belief systems into something to aspire to, rather than something to abhor, then our societies will continue to be afflicted by this sort of thing.
Spaztick on 15/12/2007 at 13:03
Quote Posted by SD
The problem is we're told we should respect religious belief rather than acknowledge it as the mental illness that it is. Regardless of the rights and wrongs of murdering your own daughter, so far as this guy's belief system is concerned, he behaved appropriately. So how can we criticise him for acting according to his beliefs when we've told him his beliefs are okay?
I don't want to single out Islam here, because they're all, at root, as bad as each other, but this is, supposedly, a religion of peace - or at least that's what our government leaders tell us. Yet every single school of Islam mandates that a person who leaves the faith should be killed. This is an absolutely explicit, non-negotiable part of the faith. So why are we in the liberal West affording respect to this sort of thing in the first place? These faiths are utterly abhorrent and go against everything we hold dear.
So long as we pussyfoot around the issue and make the most heinous, medieval, unreconstructed religious belief systems into something to aspire to, rather than something to abhor, then our societies will continue to be afflicted by this sort of thing.
You can't lay the blame solely on religious practice. Extreme religious practice is part of the problem, but it by itself is not going to be the fuel for the fire, it's the people and leaders behind it that are causing the problem. While I agree we should have zero tolerance for such crimes, saying that getting rid of religious institution will solve the world's problems is shortsighted and immature at best, and frankly I don't enjoy seeing someone try to hijack a perfectly good thread to try and advertise atheism here while at the same time egesting ignorant statements out of your mouth that try to place approximately 95 percent of the world under a single umbrella.
fett on 15/12/2007 at 13:10
Quote Posted by SD
The problem is we're told we should respect religious belief rather than acknowledge it as the mental illness that it is. Regardless of the rights and wrongs of murdering your own daughter, so far as this guy's belief system is concerned, he behaved appropriately. So how can we criticise him for acting according to his beliefs when we've told him his beliefs are okay?
I don't want to single out Islam here, because they're all, at root, as bad as each other, but this is, supposedly, a religion of peace - or at least that's what our government leaders tell us. Yet every single school of Islam mandates that a person who leaves the faith should be killed. This is an absolutely explicit, non-negotiable part of the faith. So why are we in the liberal West affording respect to this sort of thing in the first place? These faiths are utterly abhorrent and go against everything we hold dear.
So long as we pussyfoot around the issue and make the most heinous, medieval, unreconstructed religious belief systems into something to aspire to, rather than something to abhor, then our societies will continue to be afflicted by this sort of thing.
I think monkeys are flying out of my ass forthwith, but I wholeheartedly agree with everything in this post. You can't affirm a religion under the banner of tolerance, then prosecute the facets of that same religion that mandate breaking the law. I know it's broader than just the religious issue, but fundamentalism will be the death of democracy if we don't get some of this shit in check soon. Jerry Falwell died recently, so that's a good start.
Malygris on 15/12/2007 at 15:04
CBC Radio said, mere seconds ago as a matter of fact, that the murder as sparked "a debate about women's rights within the Islamic community."
Setting aside the idea that any sane and civilized person must recognize that basic human rights will always trump freedom of religious practice, I'm disturbed by the implication that women's rights within the Islamic community are somehow different than women's rights outside of it.
paloalto90 on 15/12/2007 at 15:46
Since it is against Islamic Law to force someone to become a muslim how can it be against Islamic law to allow one to leave or to be punishable by death?
It is also debatable as to whether refusing to wear a head piece can be defined as leaving one's religion.
Even in the cultures of different Islamic countries wearing head pieces is less strict than others.
Another idiotic interpretation of the Koran decided by men to keep control unless there is a direct passage that says a father can murder his own daughter.
