Muzman on 8/7/2009 at 20:26
I don't really fall into the category of choosing not to have kids, but circumstances haven't and don't seem likely to go in that direction.
I get the part about people needling you on the subject though. Mostly I've never heard people get too angry about it except when some dinner party conversation gets a little overwrought. And in that situation, I think that's all it is (in my humble experience): too much wine and a slightly poor choice of words can make it seem like casting some harsh moral dismissal on the others' life, then its all downhill from there (as parenting is virtually a public occupation and mothers in particular are often pathologically defensive about it. And if I had to listen to shit from all and sundry about how I went about it and how I'm probably doing it wrong, I would be too). From older people its mostly profound disappointment one senses instead.
To some extent, if the people in question are old friends or the same age, I think it's also that parents are desperately social monsters always on the lookout for more of their kind to relate to. So if they can recruit old friends or peers to that cause, all the better.
It's those questions from older acquaintences and things I find the strangest. The tacit "this is what you're supposed to be doing by now" that most of the culture seems to get but me. It's very odd; people ask me "You married? Kids?" and they seem stunned when I say no on both counts like that answer was impossible (mother's embarrased disappointment at this subject approaches mortification. She's been known to blurt it without provocation, like something terrible she must confess). I really can't fathom what goes through their heads at that point. It's like "didn't anyone tell you this is how it all works?". Well, no. I missed the meeting somehow (was it in school? I skipped a fair bit of school. Still so did a lot of other people I know who seem to grasp all this just fine) Didn't get the memo.
Do paren't take people aside and tell them from a young age? I know if you're Greek or Italian (or Indian, or Chinese or...) there's usually no missing it. It's drummed into you from an early age. My parents certainly didn't, but I'm pretty sure all my anglo chums didn't get an earful either. They seemed to acquire it from osmosis quite nicely.
I'm probably a 'special case' in a lot of ways. But don't worry about that. Point is, I see all this stuff that's driving childless couples nuts and I agree, it's... interesting isn't it.
driver on 8/7/2009 at 21:05
I don't have kids and plan not to at any point in the future, mostly because I judge myself utterly unfit for parenthood. This is a judgment I wish far more people took themselves.
I also don't want to turn into one of those people who produce pictures of their offspring at every opportunity and expect people to coo over them.
I don't wish to sound bitter, cynical and twisted, but I am, so that's how it comes across. :p
Sulphur on 8/7/2009 at 21:16
But what about the voluntarily childless gay people.
I'm the youngest of three children in my family. My sis and bro were born two years apart from each other; I, on the other hand, was born seven years after my brother. It's funny, you know. Despite being in the same family, I could never quite 'relate' to them. Partly because of the rather large age disparity between us, and partly because we were dysfunctional as fuck, but what family isn't.
So I asked my mom the other day, out of curiosity, just why she and dad had planned to have me so much later. She shook her head, looked at me, and said, "Who said you were planned? You just... happened. We never planned to have you."
Oh well. No one ever said curiosity would lead you to happy answers.
Chade on 8/7/2009 at 22:19
I just want you all to know that I'm only having children so that my genes can consume your resources.
And there's nothing you can do to stop me!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This thread surprises me ... when I go around talking to people I don't really encounter anyone, on either side of the fence, who is an ass about the issue. Most people don't go around blaming individual couples for global demographic trends. Or so I thought ... but maybe I just don't notice it ...
Having said that, it is harder to relate to my childless friends these days, only because our lives have become very different. I just can't give them the same sort of attention or time that I used to be able to. And I do feel a certain amount of jealousy as I watch them trek all over Europe or spend hours on a hobby, although I would never trade places with them! I do secretely hope that they settle down sooner rather then later - but that's purely a selfish thing, not a moral judgement.
Kuuso on 8/7/2009 at 22:44
Quote Posted by Thirith
Oh, FFS. Sweeping generalisations do nothing other than make you look like an idiot (whoever you are). Judgmental sweeping generalisations make you look like an idiot and an arsehole.
Some parents are parents for selfish reasons. Some parents are parents for unselfish reasons. Some couples don't have children for selfish reasons. Some couples don't have children for unselfish reasons.
What the fuck is so difficult about accepting that all of the above deserve to be looked at as individual cases rather than pigeonholed according to our preconceived notions and anecdotal evidence?
Nothing wrong with being selfish, but I don't think anyone gets children for unselfish reasons. They want to have children, nurture and teach them and see them grow up a nice person. It's selfish, but not bad.
Yeah, probably should have said that in the original post to avoid rage.
Scots Taffer on 8/7/2009 at 23:19
I must first of all add to my response that I wasn't intending to take a confrontational tone with those who don't wish to have children in general, and certainly not to be lumped in with anyone else fighting their own personal war.
My observation regarding Vas's "stick up her arse" with regards to those who
want to have children is based on many years around this place (and IRC) and noting her attitude in the past. I don't get
that, just as much as I don't get people particularly giving a shit about people
not having kids - which I honestly do not care about.
And to this response:
Quote Posted by Vasquez
Huh? :weird:
which quoted me:
Quote:
I would've thought that gross generalisations were something you were above.
I will requote you:
Quote:
I have also heard straight from the horses mouth: "Oh I can't be bothered to think about environment and such, my children take all my time and energy!"
This is quite obviously an ignorant person speaking in your example, to use them as an example of a resource-consuming supergroup of fuckwit parents is pretty irresponsible.
As a family we are very eco-conscious and drive only a big enough car as we need to fit our needs and recycle furiously as well as support all manners of healthy eco-friendly options, and I know many childless couples who probably don't do a fraction of the conserving or green-thinking we do.
So now what? Two stereotypes dispelled we're back to the core issue. You have a real problem as you highlight in your next post with people who have kids:
Quote:
Also, people who have kids are almost never asked WHY?
I think you'd find that's because it's a pretty redundant question. Most of us are genetically hardwired to breed. Everybody wants to get laid. Kids are a potential byproduct of getting laid. Now that we're living in a day and age where that instinct has become "choice", does that change the compulsion one iota or the underlying desire? Not in my book.
That said, I don't want this becoming an abortion debate.
PigLick on 9/7/2009 at 00:10
also, kids are people too, not just amorphous blobs, they have personalities and stuff. I teach kids as part of my job and by god there are some plain unlikeable children. There are others who are great and I would gladly spend time with. You dont have to be a parent to be an influence on a child, and adults(yes you Vas) should spend more time with children in general, you might suprise yourself.
Angel Dust on 9/7/2009 at 00:49
Quote Posted by Taffer36
See below
I thought my post had some sort of place in this thread. One such argument against having kids could be something like the above, to which I say ADOPT, because those kids already exist and you could POTENTIALLY save them from a shit life.
It's actually quite difficult and expensive, at least over here, to adopt a child. My wife and I looked into it seriously but the process would have taken years, with no guarantee of actually getting a child. So we're doing it the old fashioned way but I think my wife would like to consider adoption again for any subsequent minions ;)
Martin Karne on 9/7/2009 at 00:56
I took that decision when I was 12 y.o.
Seeing how things are going in this planet, it was a very smart choice.
Thirith on 9/7/2009 at 05:05
Quote Posted by Martin Karne
I took that decision when I was 12 y.o.
Seeing how things are going in this planet, it was a very smart choice.
You've been procreating since the age of 12? :wot:
