nickolae on 12/3/2006 at 01:32
Bio-Labs and their fruit flies. I'm sure your thinking of the amazing Four Winged fruit fly. If you take a look at the four winged fruit fly you'll find out that the other two wings are actually dead, they are not hooked up to any muscle tissue at all. The four winged fruit fly can't even fly, it just jumps around.....not very fly like. It's a mutation that could never live outside of the highly controlled, intellgently run laboratory :-)
Life de-volves. Organisms do not "get better" with time. Humans came from a perfect gene pool and it has degenerated to what we have today.
Evolution is by it's very nature untestable. I have yet to see one missing link, one laboratory to produce a cross-specie animal. Macro Evolution simply does not occur. Micro Evolution does occur (finches and what have you).
Do an iota of homework on Carbon dating and you'll see how faulty it is. (living snails being millions of years old, and my personal fav, or freshly killed seal being millions of years old)
d0om on 12/3/2006 at 01:38
CARBON dating can be flawed, yes. It is based on fluctuating levels of C-14 in the atmosphere created by the sun. When an organism dies it stops exchanging with the atmosphere and so has less C-14 in it as it decays away. However solar events can change the level of C-14 in the atmosphere rather than it remaining constant so it can suffer from problems in some situations. C-14 is not used to date things longer than ~ 40,000 years as it becomes rather inacurate, so I doubt anyone claimed to date a seal as millions of years old.
However radioactive decay of other elementals in minerals with much longer half-lives can date when the mineral was formed. (As the mineral decays over time some of element 1 becomes element 2 which allows you to date it.)
The earth is billions of years old.
Of course with relativity the Earth can be 6,000 years old if you pick the right frame to watch it from. It can be any length of time old you want between 0 and a few billion years. Perhaps we should calculate the velocity to give the Earth as 6,000 years old and try to find God there? ;)
Paz on 12/3/2006 at 01:48
Guys, it's like kicking a disabled child in the face. Stop it :(
nickolae on 12/3/2006 at 01:52
d0om Thank you for engaging me in the topic as an equal....a person
I'm intruiged on your statement and will investigate. I've got these jumble of facts that I'm trying to spit out so I'm not left behind in the conversation, but at the same time not sound dumb.
Again I would challenge anyone to bring forth a missing link or observation of Macro-Evolution in nature. people forget that Evolution is a theory, not a fact. It still has many problems and issues that need to be resolved. If I.D. is so convoluded and such, it should be no problem for Evolution to take the things apart and refute them. Keep in mind the harrowed Scopes trial of 1925. 95% of the evidence for evolution that was stated as fact in 1925 is now considered laughable in today's scientific community (Haekels Embryos for example).
You don't prove anything by getting all emotional and throwing around emotion filled diaper bombs. It makes you look silly.
d0om on 12/3/2006 at 02:01
What really annoys me is that evolution is such a beautiful theory that explains everything we see around us in the natural world and some people decide that their God must have done it instead.
Why their God can't have done it via the beautiful mechanism of evolution I don't understand.
The trouble with wanting exampls of speciation is that the concent of a species is fundamentally flawed. We count millions of species of bacteria and yet bacteria do now breed. They divide asexually so by the script defination of "breed to produce viable young" every single individual bacteria is a seperate species, and every time one divides a new species is created.
This is clearly a nonsensical situation. However no-one has really come up with a decent defination of a species. The concept seems usefull for classifying life but I wouldn't put too much stock in the precise wordings you hear about.
There is a good example of two sets of goats which were origionally thought to be the same species, but in fact one set has a differenet number of chromosomes and so they cannot interbreed. I forgot the names though.
As for "macro" and "micro" evolution, these terms do not exist scientifically. I do not know where you got them from but I imagine it was a proponent of ID.
(Oh and Gravity is a THEORY too, while Newton's LAWS of motion have been shown to be false. Theory means its pretty much 100% accepted for all current data.)
Gingerbread Man on 12/3/2006 at 02:02
Quote Posted by nickolae
Hilariously ignorant noise.
I don't even know where to start, so I'm not going to. I hit the Retard Wall, I'm done.
nickolae on 12/3/2006 at 02:13
I'm talking about Transitional forms, which according to Evolution there should be millions of. Not bacteria but of animals.
Macro Evolution is that of the Ameboa to Fish to Amphibian.......
(the so-called beautiful evolution of rat-like animals into Whales.)
Micro Evolution is like your goats, and Darwins Finches and the lot.
And when it comes down to it. Evolution simply does not jive with the bible. Not only in it's narrative (Genesis) but in it's basic ideals. So that why I beleive there is something else going on with the origin of life as we've been told.
the·o·ry (thē'ə-rē, thîr'ē) pronunciation
n., pl. -ries.
1. A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.
2. The branch of a science or art consisting of its explanatory statements, accepted principles, and methods of analysis, as opposed to practice: a fine musician who had never studied theory.
3. A set of theorems that constitute a systematic view of a branch of mathematics.
4. Abstract reasoning; speculation: a decision based on experience rather than theory.
5. A belief or principle that guides action or assists comprehension or judgment: staked out the house on the theory that criminals usually return to the scene of the crime.
6. An assumption based on limited information or knowledge; a conjecture.
Fafhrd on 12/3/2006 at 02:17
Quote Posted by nickolae
If I.D. is so convoluded and such, it should be no problem for Evolution to take the things apart and refute them.
You WERE paying attention to that whole Dover Trial thing, weren't you?
Quote Posted by nickolae
Life de-volves. Organisms do not "get better" with time. Humans came from a perfect gene pool and it has degenerated to what we have today.
Where in the sweet chocolate christ on a stick did you get
this notion? You're not that guy from a while back that believes that humans were ten-foot tall perfect beings up until God let them start eating meat are you?
Quote Posted by nickolae
No one has observed Macro Evolution in nature.
(
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html) Oh, look, a great big list of observed speciations, complete with a handy dandy guide to explain what speciation means.
Quote Posted by nickolae
And when it comes down to it. Evolution simply does not jive with the bible.
WELL HOLY SHIT! Pack it up science! You don't jive with an 8,000 year old historical/religious text.
nickolae on 12/3/2006 at 02:27
that report is great. It totally supports my point. I cant see one instance of a ameboa changing into a wasp, or a house-fly changing into a fish or anything like that.
The report dealt mostly with plants anyway, who changed in only a few chromosones. hybridizing some radishes and stuff. Notice how lots of them were sterile afterwards. Not very good for making other radish/cabbage hybrids, very not good in nature. It takes intelligent scientists to make a different kind of radish/cabbage. nothing chance there.
Fafhrd on 12/3/2006 at 02:32
Quote Posted by nickolae
that report is great. It totally supports my point. I cant see one instance of a ameboa changing into a wasp, or a house-fly changing into a fish or anything like that.
it's not like that takes HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF FUCKING YEARS, NOW IS IT?
And considering that you replied in about ten minutes to my last post, I can assume that you didn't actually READ the Talk Origins bit.
What bothers me the most about creationist fundies and their constant attacks on evolution is that, like d0om says, it's a brilliant theory that perfectly accounts for all life that exists, and that they attack from a position of such mind boggling ignorance, when there is absolutely NO REASON for them to be ignorant of the subject. All of the information necessary to explain what the theory actually MEANS is out there, publically available, and FREE at your local library, and they just. fucking. refuse. to educate themselves at all. I mean, jesus fucking christ, "housefly turning into a fish?" "amoeba turning into a wasp?" You're not talking about speciation events there, you're talking about suddenly jumping PHYLA, and I assume you want this happening in a single generation. THAT'S NOT EVOLUTION, YOU TWAT. What you're asking for is what's commonly referred to as a
miracle. And would actually DISprove evolutionary theory.
