Kolya on 23/3/2009 at 12:26
No, I just don't negotiate with terrorists.
Seriously, I intentionally referred to the economical crisis (and BEAR's post) by saying "capitalism failed or whatever happened". This would have made clear to anyone who doesn't wear his pants in a twist that I'M NOT SURE WHAT HAPPENED. Not you though, you're out to fight, against perceived threats, if necessary.
How's the weather in Florida?
Thief13x on 23/3/2009 at 14:49
It's good I don't think global warming's hit here yet
It's not that I'm trying to start a fight, it's just that capitalism isn't something that just happened, it's something that alot of people both fought and died to get and to protect. I get an uneasy feeling when I see people willing to ditch it just because they don't know what's going on and when in doubt blame capitalism. To me it's like saying "I don't know who killed him, but it was probably this guy so give him the death pentalty" (man I'm just full of hot topics today, it must be a Monday):cheeky:
Gryzemuis on 23/3/2009 at 15:50
Quote Posted by Thief13x
... it's something that alot of people both fought and died to get and to protect.
That is no argument. There is a lot of stuff that people have fought and died for to protect. Lots of crappy stuff. I don't care that someone fought and died for the Catholic Church. It doesn't make the Catholic Church suddenly worth anything.
Quote:
I get an uneasy feeling when I see people willing to ditch it just because they don't know what's going on and when in doubt blame capitalism.
You are blaming others of the same thing you are doing. Trying to catogorize things into absolute wrongs and absolute rights. The right solution is probably something that combines different ideologies and systems.
As I've tried to explain earlier in this thread, I think a system should allow capitalism for the things it is suited for, and forbid it for things where you don't want it. Some examples:
You don't want to privatize energy production. Many reasons: you don't want a private company to operate a nuclear plant. You don't want a private company to minimize costs, and therefor reduce maintenance, redundancy and reliability of energy supply. You don't want private companies make huge profits by manipulating prices (See last few years). Or making huge profits on oil and gas which actually belongs to the citizens of a country (see Russia before Poetin).
Imho, you don't want to privatize anything that can not have real competition. A good example of this is anything that literally requires digging holes in every street in the country. Energy transportation. But also phone and network companies. Cable companies. There basically is no real competition there, because companies are not allowed to put in 8 different fibre cables for 8 different cable companies. And by having parallel networks, cost increases, thus nullifying the benefits of competition. Because technology costs have dropped so much, we could have had almost free phone networks by now, if still operated by the goverment.
You don't want pure competition in health care. Do you really want hospitals that compete by lowering costs ? You have to put in zillions of little rules to make sure doctors and hospitals won't let their patients die for higher profits. Why not just make it a goverment paid operation ?
As an example about privatization, I always give the example of the road in front of your house. I'd like your city to please sell me the road in front of you house. It will be much better if I own it. I will make sure the road will be maintained properly. In return for that, I will put a toll booth in front of every house, and I'll charge you every time you drive over the street in front of your house. And don't worry, I'll make sure I'll make a profit. Please let your city sell me your street. Everything will be fine.
Think about it, would you want that ?
Over the last 20 years, some people have convinced the world that it would be good to privatize everything. Even stuff that's obviously not suited to give into the hands of money grubbing bastards. It's time people admit that some services should be run as a public service. Not all, but some. The discussion is about which ones.
Kolya on 23/3/2009 at 16:05
Quote Posted by Thief13x
I get an uneasy feeling when I see people willing to ditch it just because they don't know what's going on and when in doubt blame capitalism.
I've seen communism and capitalism, and unlike you halfwit I've learned a bit in the course. So stop assuming shit about me or I'll screw your little argument over til you don't know your Marx from your Smith anymore. Got that?
/Kolya not trying to start a fight
Thief13x on 23/3/2009 at 18:09
Okay, not sure if that was serious but
Quote Posted by Kolya
I'M NOT SURE WHAT HAPPENED.
Plus, how do I know you've experienced communism Koyla, you never made a map;)
Quote Posted by LittleFlower
That is no argument. There is a lot of stuff that people have fought and died for to protect. Lots of crappy stuff. I don't care that someone fought and died for the Catholic Church. It doesn't make the Catholic Church suddenly worth anything.
Agreed, but that wasn't my argument, that was a subpoint. My argument is that people see a problem and blame capitalism because that's the current system and they probably don't know the full story. I would assume our president knows the full story, and he knows that capitalism isn't at fault.
Quote Posted by LittleFlower
You are blaming others of the same thing you are doing. Trying to catogorize things into absolute wrongs and absolute rights. The right solution is probably something that combines different ideologies and systems.
I only wish more people would think this way, although I think we have to be damn careful about what we give up because it's easy to give freedom away... it's a bitch to get it back. That said, I don't think I'm doing the same thing. My problem is with the folks who are saying we need to sack capitalism and incorporate socialism because (from my perspective) they don't want to understand the problem and blame it on the easy target, capitalism.
Kolya on 23/3/2009 at 18:17
Quote Posted by Thief13x
Okay, not sure if that was serious but
Not really. ;)
Quote Posted by Thief13x
Plus, how do I know you've experienced communism Koyla, you never made a map;)
That's rather the point: You don't know. So why assume that me or BEAR would throw away capitalism without checking the facts first. I mean that's exactly what BEAR asked for as well, just coming from a different direction, but yeah.
Starrfall on 23/3/2009 at 22:39
I'm getting a bar study loan from citibank thanks taxpayers!
I promise to stimulate the economy with it really hard.
BEAR on 23/3/2009 at 22:53
Quote Posted by Scots Taffer
Not really sure who that post is directed at or, really, what purpose it serves. Just because a situation is incredibly complex doesn't mean that from the outside looking in you can't fathom that something is either fundamentally or systemically broken, and then try to pose a series of questions that enable you to understand better what the problem(s) might be and what might be done to fix them.
My post was in response to the one directly above it. I'm not even saying I don't think the system is broken, I think its all fucked up. See my previous posts on the subject (wherever they may be).
Quote Posted by Thief13x
I don't think anyone besides you, BEAR, is claiming to have all the answers, not even our president. Proping up AIG and the likes is a step that was taken with quite a bit of uncertainty. As Pres. Obama said, he (and alot of other people) basically made an educated bet that the money we will spend proping up these institutions will be less in the long run than the GDI that would be lost otherwise.
As far as I'm concerned, anyone being critical of those who are tossing around ideas to solve this crisis for tossing around said ideas are the only ones holding this country back. I don't think you can argue that letting some of these corporations fail is undoubtedly the wrong approach. In my opinion, this would be about as big as a gamble as the one we're taking now (see the updated budget, federal deficit, Hillary begging China for more money, etc...).
edit - I especially like the phrase "failure of an Ideology," ... thrown around so much by numbnuts, spouting off like this didn't happen ....
... you get the picture
you define this as capitalism there BEAR? don't answer, just shut the fuck up :)
Mmm, I kind of forgot I actually posted in this thread. If you think I actually think that I understand it or know anything special then you misunderstand (shocker!). The only thing I know for sure is that I don't understand, but the gross oversimplifications I see thrown around do tend to bug me somewhat. I'm not sure what that giant list you posted was, and I don't know if I care enough to try and figure out (probably bailout money or something, thought that would be stupid since I wasn't even defending the bailout or anything like it).
I don't have to know whats going on to recognize other people who don't know whats going on and yet act as if they do. I've read enough pseudo-intellectual babble in my day to see the difference, which is why my eyes gloss over when I read it.
Edit: lol, you think I "blame capitalism"? I'm pretty sure you spent waaay too much time thinking my post through, much more than I did. Overall I think that capitalism and democracy (of the western style) has created a quality of life and social stability unparalleled in history, something not to be taken lightly. But I don't think these are sacred systems that can't be fooled with, they just shouldn't be fooled with carelessly.
Thief13x on 24/3/2009 at 17:14
Quote Posted by Starrfall
I'm getting a bar study loan from citibank thanks taxpayers!
I promise to stimulate the economy with it really hard.
haha, all my student loans are through citibank as well. That and I asked Bank of America to refund a $35 overdraft fee on my checking account and they actually did! I was prepared to give them my bailout speech otherwise:ebil:
Quote:
Edit: lol, you think I "blame capitalism"? I'm pretty sure you spent waaay too much time thinking my post through, much more than I did.
You can rest assured that I don't think about what you write any more than i have to bear:p, I simply read what you wrote, perhaps you should think a bit more about 'failure of an idealogy' before you write it, I understand now what you were trying to say but it's one of those anti-capitalism phrases being tossed around quite a bit these days.
I also posted the list of (yes, BANK bailouts) not because you support the bailout (don't know if you do) but to outline the argument that capitalism can't be blamed when it's not being practiced in the first place (which those number quite clearly attest to).
Rug Burn Junky on 24/3/2009 at 19:45
Quote Posted by Thief13x
to outline the argument that capitalism can't be blamed when it's not being practiced in the first place (which those number quite clearly attest to).
So if a Christian scientist kid gets sick with an infection, and the doctor gives her antibiotics to help her, you'd be right there with the parents saying "Don't blame our religion for this mess, that's not what's being practiced in the first place."
FAIL
Translation: Try to work a little harder on your shitty examples.
