Could "T2X: Shadows of the Metal Age" be better than TG and T2? - by Sanctus Germanus
Starker on 6/10/2016 at 22:31
Well, what specifically is there that would make Luthien an expert in this matter? Otherwise it basically boils down to: "A bunch of pepole talked about it 10+ years ago and decided it was like that", essentially nothing more than an argument by assertion. Claiming that something is true doesn't make it true.
marbleman on 6/10/2016 at 22:45
Obviously, for that group of people the decision they made is very important, seeing as there were extensive discussions, so disagreeing with it goes again their established views. I find it hilarious though. It's like supporting an opinion with another opinion: "It is so, because we decided. It is better, because I think so." This is not how evidence and arguments work.
What's also hilariuos, is that the thread is about T2X, not T1 vs T2. However, most of the discussions have been about the latter.
bjack on 6/10/2016 at 22:55
Again, I find T2 superior to TG because I “know” Thief via T2. TMA is Thief to me and I consider TG to be retro and not quite as good. It is just my perception, mainly the old “your first love is always your best” type of attitude. I feel that may be in play for some that prefer T1 over T2.
I'll have to play TG again to get another opinion. I only played it through once. I've played a number of T1/TG FMs. All are not quite as good as T2 style FMs. Again, only my preference.
But is T2X really “better” than either T1/TG or T2? It is different. Consider T2 to be vodka and T2X to be white rum. Which goes better with Coke? Which with orange juice? TG to me is brandy. Not really something to use a mixer with. What is your pleasure? It all depends. I am glad they all exist. After thinking about the topic, I think I will search out some T1 FMs I have not played yet. Thanks for that push. :)
marbleman on 6/10/2016 at 23:00
The order in which you play the games is an interesting point, bjack. I personally started with T2 (and replayed it for a couple of times), then T2X, and only then, TG. For the longest time I thought T2 was the best one, but after playing the both T2X and TG for a couple of times, they grew on me and now I like all of them equally.
Luthien on 7/10/2016 at 00:01
Interesting that several people who started playing the series late and began with T2 think that T1 is worse. Technically, the T2 engine is of course better, and FMs used on it are preferrable most of the time.
Quote Posted by "bjack"
I do not have T1, only TG
TDP = Thief: The Dark Project
TG = Thief Gold
T1 = either TG or TDP
So, you have T1 but not TDP. ;)
TDP does not have the levels Thieves Guild, Song of Caverns and Mages' Tower. There are some changes to some other levels, like craymen instead of the mages in the Lost City (which many people prefer to the TG version of the level), and one big change is that there are two talismans in the Lost City in TDP. Overall you don't miss that much if you only have played TG but not TDP.
Quote Posted by "marbleman"
What's also hilariuos, is that the thread is about T2X, not T1 vs T2.
Maybe you could read the thread title again? That is, if you can stop laughing about others' inferior mental capabilities for a second?
It may come as an surprise to you, but others are entitled to talk or write about whatever they want at any time, without asking the thread starter for permission first.
Quote Posted by "marbleman
Obviously, for that group of people the decision they made is very important, seeing as there were extensive discussions, so disagreeing with it goes again their established views. I find it hilarious though. It's like supporting an opinion with another opinion: "It is so, because we decided. It is better, because I think so." This is not how evidence and arguments work.
You're displaying a feeling of superiority over people who played the series here from the start and discussed this in the early 2000s ten times as much as you probably ever will. That doesn't make the "oldtimers" fossils with stubborn, unfounded opinions as you seem to think. There is no such thing as an "orthodox doctrine" about TDP vs. TG vs. TMA. It just turned out, that many people prefered the story and atmosphere of TG over TMA, while as far as I remember fewer preferred TMA over TG. And then there are also a few who preferred TDP over TG (which I'm personally still undecided about).
As an indication of reception among fans on Ttlg - as far as I remember, more of the really crazy stuff (roof climbing, silent project, engine breaking, extreme thieving stunts, cushy trumpet mode, speed runs etc.) was done with T1 while TMA never got that much attention, and I do not know why that is. (But maybe TMA attracted more "ghosters" than T1.) Possibly it really has to do with kangaroo jumping and less linear level design in T1 which made the places for the crazy stuff more accessible. In some of these aspects, T2X is really not that open as T1 and TMA are.
Luthien on 7/10/2016 at 00:06
P.S.: If there were real Thief players still around, they'd go and make funny, amazing or incredibly labour-intensive screenshots instead of insulting each other over utterly inconsequential matters. :tsktsk:
Starker on 7/10/2016 at 00:22
Personally, I don't give a crap about who the "real" fans or who the "real" Thief players are. If someone finds the game tomorrow and falls in love with it, I consider them a real fan. And if someone will like one game over the other, I consider their opinion just as valid as mine even if I played the games in early 2000s and they only yesterday. This "we are the superior fans because we played the game earlier" shtick is just sad. At the end of the day, it's just a damn video game.
Sanctus Germanus on 7/10/2016 at 05:37
Quote Posted by bjack
But is T2X really “better” than either T1/TG or T2? It is different. Consider T2 to be vodka and T2X to be white rum. Which goes better with Coke? Which with orange juice? TG to me is brandy. Not really something to use a mixer with. What is your pleasure? It all depends. I am glad they all exist. After thinking about the topic, I think I will search out some T1 FMs I have not played yet. Thanks for that push. :)
There's a lot of dark passion around here that I maliciously like to detonate. It's nice to read replies like yours.
marbleman on 7/10/2016 at 06:38
Quote:
You're displaying a feeling of superiority over people who played the series here from the start and discussed this in the early 2000s ten times as much as you probably ever will.
You're confusing superiority with equality. And so far, you're the one who is acting superior. The fact that someone discovered the game before me doesnt make them any "realer" of a fan. Nor does any particular playstyle: "real Thief players'd go and make funny, amazing or incredibly labour-intensive screenshots". Nor does finding engine exploits. Basically, what Starker said.
And yes, you're entitled to discuss whatever you want in any thread, you're right there.
If you consider T1 to be superior - it's great! But your taste is not a norm for everybody else. It's also not any more important than taste of any other person.
Luthien on 7/10/2016 at 08:37
Quote Posted by marbleman
The fact that someone discovered the game before me doesnt make them any "realer" of a fan. Nor does any particular playstyle: "real Thief players'd go and make funny, amazing or incredibly labour-intensive screenshots". Nor does finding engine exploits.
At least, that many people spent a lot of time discussing the question of T1 vs. TMA, listening to and thinking about lots of arguments on that issue makes them well informed and their opinion well founded.
