Scots Taffer on 19/8/2009 at 03:50
Can someone do a cliff notes of what I'm apparently missing?
Tonamel on 19/8/2009 at 04:05
1) Liberals introduce a bill to provide gov't sponsored health insurance to people who can't afford to go with private insurers.
2) Conservatives go BATSHIT INSANE, spouting off all sorts of obvious lies, such as that the bill will introduce Death Panels to decide when you die.
3) lol
To expand on point 2, refer to CCToad's mention of "It allows for the government direct access to bank accounts of those enrolled in the public option." As I understand it, the purpose of that part of the bill is to allow the government to cash checks that I write to them. OH NO.
Rug Burn Junky on 19/8/2009 at 04:08
Quote Posted by Rug Burn Junky
Yeah, gee, sorry about that.
You see, I'm living in this place called REALITY, and in REALITY, those living will consultations are not mandatory.
But, you know, feel free to keep thinking otherwise.
You know, wait a second, this was way more respectful than it needs to be... because, while they're still not mandatory, the important point is
...wait for it...
that they're NOT FUCKING DEATH PANELS YOU BRAIN DEAD RETARD.
Scots Taffer on 19/8/2009 at 04:39
Liberal Death Panel sounds like a metal band.
Rogue Keeper on 19/8/2009 at 07:31
Quote Posted by Rug Burn Junky
Saying that those on the left should just shut up and trust Obama is naive.
Well, you can always give me the benefit of the doubt for not watching this affair as closely as you do. I didn't explicitly say they should just "shut up."
But it's a bitch to be a president of every genius AND every idiot AND dozen of lobby groups in the village, if you want to make a big change. :thumb:
Important events in the history are often accompanied with similar hysteria of general crowd. Stupidity will submit, sooner or later, but then again, it takes patience. Some changes are better to be divided to several stages, just like the doctor gradually increases the dose of medicine for his patients. If O won't manage to fully finish the intended reform, someone else will follow what he began. The concept of healthcare/insurance reform is already evolving for decades anyway?
CCCToad on 19/8/2009 at 13:03
Quote Posted by Rug Burn Junky
You know, wait a second, this was way more respectful than it needs to be... because, while they're still not mandatory, the important point is
...wait for it...[COLOR "Red]
that they're NOT FUCKING DEATH PANELS YOU BRAIN DEAD RETARD.
wrong, because I never said they were death panels. I'm sorry your intellect is so massive that it can be automatically inferred that anyone who disagrees is retarded. From now on I will bow down and yield to the intellect of one so brilliant that he is confident who can prove his point by swearing at others instead of showing evidence that he is correct.
The death panels aren't in the bill. However, it does provide for government committees that can allocate treatment. The reason seniors are pissed are quotes such as this one made by Rahm Emanuel, who is serving double duty as chief of staff and the health care advisor.
I also can't help but feel you're setting up a straw dog. prove ONE of my other objections wrong. you can't, because i'm citing the bill.
Quote:
his civic republican or deliberative democratic conception of the good provides both procedural and substantive insights for developing a just allocation of health care resources. Procedurally, it suggests the need for public forums to deliberate about which health services should be considered basic and should be socially guaranteed. Substantively, it suggests
services that promote the continuation of the polity - those that ensure healthy future generations, ensure development of practical reasoning skills, and ensure full and active participation by citizens in public deliberations - are to be socially guaranteed as basic. Conversely, services provided to individuals who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens are not basic and should not be guaranteed. An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia. A less obvious example is guaranteeing neuropsychological services to ensure children with learning disabilities can read and learn to reason.
(excerpted from (
http://blog.jonolan.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/Where_Civic_Republicanism_and_Deliberative_Democracy_Meet.pdf))
In other words, he is advocating that your potential value to society is what should prioritize health care: when there are shortages of services(and there are now), care is to be given in order of whatever value to society you have. Granted, the bill doesn't say how the government insurance panels will prioritize care. However, this philosophy is held by those who will be setting up the panels.
Again, I'm not saying that its a "death panel", because it isn't. Its more of an "allocation commitee". However, there is enough for me to understand why middle to older aged people are pissed: they are afraid that someone will deem them "less valuable" than younger people and deny them care.
DDL on 19/8/2009 at 13:12
Can't they still just use their medical insurance to get non-state-funded treatment then?
I mean, I was kinda assuming this system was "we'll keep the existing insurance scheme, but introduce an govt-funded alternative to both encourage medical insurance peeps to lower prices and not be douchebags all the time, and provide care for those too poor to afford medical insurance"
Sorta like how we have the NHS in the UK, but you can also go private and pay for it yourself if you can afford it. You will always be provided for, but if you want, you can pay more to be provided for more rapidly, or more conveniently.
But I'm apparently wrong..is it anything even close to that? Or what? :erg:
Also, old people ARE stupidly expensive. STUPIDLY STUPIDLY expensive. If you could treat 20 kids with cancer for the price of keeping one old duffer alive for seven more months, what would YOU choose? Hell, I'd go for the kids even if the old duffer was me.
Rogue Keeper on 19/8/2009 at 13:27
Damn right, the state should give a free cyanide capsule to every citizen who hits 60. :cool:
Don't look at me like that, it was my mom's idea.
fett on 19/8/2009 at 13:40
Quote Posted by Scots Taffer
Liberal Death Panel sounds like a metal band.
They are. A METAL BAND WILL BE DECIDING WHETHER YOUR GRANDMOTHER LIVES OR DIES.
I think I have an explanation for the insanity, though this is probably oversimplified. My parent's generation (now 60 years old) grew up in a world where America was the Best Country in the World, Mexicans stayed in Mexico where they deserved to be because they're all filthy, taco eating spics, and the black man knew his place, regardless of desegregation or equal rights. They were all for equality so long as it made all minorities equal to one another, but inferior to them (white people).
As they've gotten older, they've watched gang crime escalate (fault of The Blacks), education go down the shitter (fault of desegregation), wages stall (fault of illegals) and jobs ship overseas (fault of foreigners). They've reached these conclusions because what used to happen somewhere else (integration, diversity) is happening in their own neighborhood as all these minorities get too big for their britches and actually think they deserve to pursue happiness. There's only so much to go around you know, and they're taking some of mine with their gangster rap and cheap restaurants. If they want to enjoy America, they need to earn it. You know, like we did with the Indians way back.
This mindframe is exacerbated by the likes of Fox news, which has basically become an outlet for White Anger. Fox is always angry about something, whether it's true, relevant, or logical, and that age group needs to be angry. They need someone to identify with them in their anger, fear, outrage - and Fox has tapped into that in a big way in the last 8 years. Of course, they fail to remember that the reason they're angry about money, jobs, gas prices etc. began with the Bush administration. But there's a nigger in the white house now so he's the perfect person to be angry at. Everything he does is part of a socialist plot to let the Muslims take over the country (though none of them would know a socialist nor a Muslim if they were ass-fucked by one). Fox has found an audience in the disenchanted, the threatened, the fearful, and they are saying anything they can to keep them that way. It's good for ratings after all. (I'm using Fox as the figure-head here - this media blitz on White Folk includes all the Christian media outlets like AFA, Focus on the Family/James Dobson, Limbaugh and the like).
Ever seen the movie Falling Down with Michael Douglas? It's that, except with a latte and minus the mental instability.
CCCToad on 19/8/2009 at 13:46
technically, but the bill in its pre-summer adjournment form places regulations on private insurance companies, and as described in one of the sections I've quoted, imposes a 2.5% income tax on anyone who does not have an insurance plan that meets their criteria. If you decide to risk going without, or you opt for coverage that doesn't cover what the government requires it to, you have to pay more. Employers also have the discussed tax if they do not offer employees the public option, and will be regularly audited if they offer a company insurance plan.
basically, the current bill seems designed to give the public option a large competitive advantage over private insurance.
that seems to be the main focus of the bill, from what parts of it I have read and what I have read about it. Again, I have yet to see anything in the bill that works on addressing the causes of high health costs, such as rampant price fixing(which is somewhat enabled by the poorly managed medicare and medicaid). Nothing to address the massive costs added by lawsuits, and nothing to address other problems in healthcare, like poor drug testing standards in the FDA.
I'm just not seeing any reform from this bill.
edit:
@fett
This isn't my favorite source to get quotes from, but I think this snippet applies.
Quote:
How one gets from "we don't want socialized medicine" to "we hate black people" was a tough equation. As my algebra teacher used to say: "Please show your work."
a few key pointers:
Its important to keep in mind that FOX (which sucks due to their illogical reporting), is the dominant news network, ALL have been losing viewers. The long term trend(since 1980) is that they and the other news networks are steadily losing viewers.
the first economic troubles were the stock crash that occurred at the end of 2000, during Bush's presidency....(or was it?)
Given that obama had a majority vote among older citizens, i also doubt that they are as a group, racist. I also doubt that its fair to say that they blame it all on Democrats: turnout among Republican voters was low, which would indicate disenchantment. Visible cronyism, the Republicans proposing a bailout bill, the immigration bill, and many other incidents have irreparably damaged the relationship between the republican party's voters and its leaders. The most common sentiment echoed seems to be that while Obama is bad, the other large problem is that the Republican leadership is too corrupt and elitist to accurately represent the interests of its base.
This last part is just personal sentiment, but it lets you know where I stand personally. I HOPE the Republican party collapses, because at this point neither party is making a genuine attempt to help America: both are just catering to their controlling interests and donors. if the Republican party were to collapse, it would leave an ideological power vacuum that could be filled by a party that is less corrupt and represents (to use a cliche phrase) "main street, not wall street".
