Contemporary American Conservatism: an international perspective

Tonamel on 29/8/2009 at 06:53

Quote Posted by Rug Burn Junky

And, of course, economists have fancy maths that that say what interest rates should be in order to maintain a (more or less) stable economy.

When the economy was at its worst, The Math recommended an interest rate of -6%.

Albert on 29/8/2009 at 06:58

Quote Posted by Muzman

And there are some, do they want to try and tell us what the hell happened?

Apathy + Bias x greed = One helluva decade. :devil:

Teens are like hippies without a clue, or they seem to be missing the big picture...

Cops are starting to remind me of kings...

Politicians are starting to remind me of cops...

And everyone is using Obama as a stupid scapegoat. Why, I'm not exactly behind Obama, but it's rude to pin something on someone so innocent when it's obvious as heck to the rest of the world those critics aren't all that innocent either...

And remember, even with Big W. (Little brain) gone, we've still got hacks walking the streets. The problem? Why, it's the media of course. It's a chimera of PC and Feeble-minded bigotry that pretty much sums up the US today: And divided we shall fall.

And please. Just because 700 other people said so-and-so made a big no-no with *fill-blank-here*, that doesn't mean "Mindlessly donate your brain, pancreas and other organs to the media." We should live within communities, and also, try to increase tourism a little. For instance, jog/bike down to the next town and get yourself a stinking meal at a restaurant. Buy clothing at used clothing stores (To give those media-bastards what for...), and hey, play old games like Thief, which is tons better than the 20.00 dollar game on steam which seems to create a black-hole of profit...

And Wii store games are quite expensive. For $10, I've gotten a Nes with 2 controllers, a zapper and at least 30 of the games that would cost you $90 inflated on the Wii store channel. (Also, I bought my Wii used for about $150 from a friend. I love it, especially since I'm just using the homebrew channel to suit my needs!)

It won't help the economy alot, but depending on what your financial plan is, it's either a start or extension to your current status.

D'Juhn Keep on 29/8/2009 at 08:33

Quote Posted by SD

Quote Posted by Thief13x

I would just like for someone to tell me just one fucking thing the federal government hasn't completely failed at.

Apparently they've had some success in helping retards use the Internet.

Quote Posted by Rug Burn Junky

Fuck, at least the radioactive waste in your water supply explains what happened to you in the womb.

I just can't decide my favourite

CCCToad on 29/8/2009 at 13:43

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Nevermind the fact that part of the reason that shit's getting ugly in the medicare budget is that for the last 6 years of the Bush administration, proposed caps on fees paid to doctors were overridden, causing expenditures to inflate, to the glee of the medical industry. Or because medicare is unable to negotiate drug prices because of restrictions placed on it by the Prescription plan Part D legislation.

You're wrong to call me "fucking retarded", because those are points that I've been pointing out constantly, and issues that are partially responsible for the high cost of medicine. And its part of why medicare hasn't worked that well

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If you understand anything about economics, you know that when economic growth slows, you cut interest rates to spur investment. Of course, once interest rates hit 0, there is nothing else that can be done on that front.

What's the only other option at that point? If you guessed "You have to pump money into the economy." you win a prize!

You show your own closed minded-ness and ignorance. There's lots else that can be done. one example: (https://etax.dor.ga.gov/salestax/holiday/2009/index.aspx)

Which is also an example of "increasing our short term debt".

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But what's most striking about this statement of yours is the sentiment. This Joe-the-plumber idea that anybody who's NOT an expert should have their opinion more valued than someone who is

The problem is that quite a few of the "experts" don't agree with you on the economy.

And no, employment isn't the only statistic. It is, however, the most important because it directly affects most of the others, from consumer spending to foreclosure rates.. From former secretary of labor Robert Reich:

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Unfortunately, V-shapers are looking back at the wrong recessions. Focus on those that started with the bursting of a giant speculative bubble and you see slow recoveries. The reason is asset values at bottom are so low that investor confidence returns only gradually.

That's where the more sober U-shapers come in. They predict a more gradual recovery, as investors slowly tiptoe back into the market.

Personally, I don't buy into either camp. In a recession this deep, recovery doesn't depend on investors. It depends on consumers who, after all, are 70 percent of the U.S. economy. And this time consumers got really whacked. Until consumers start spending again, you can forget any recovery, V or U shaped.

Problem is, consumers won't start spending until they have money in their pockets and feel reasonably secure. But they don't have the money, and it's hard to see where it will come from. They can't borrow. Their homes are worth a fraction of what they were before, so say goodbye to home equity loans and refinancings. One out of ten home owners is under water -- owing more on their homes than their homes are worth. Unemployment continues to rise, and number of hours at work continues to drop. Those who can are saving. Those who can't are hunkering down, as they must

My prediction, then? Not a V, not a U. But an X. This economy can't get back on track because the track we were on for years -- featuring flat or declining median wages, mounting consumer debt, and widening insecurity, not to mention increasing carbon in the atmosphere -- simply cannot be sustained.

The X marks a brand new track -- a new economy. What will it look like? Nobody knows. All we know is the current economy can't "recover" because it can't go back to where it was before the crash. So instead of asking when the recovery will start, we should be asking when and how the new economy will begin. More on this to come.

And before you jump to call him a "whacko death panel nutjob birther"

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In her short time on the public stage, we've come to expect this sort of thing from Governor Palin. But listen to other Republicans these days -- and if you can bear it, tune in to right-wing Hate Radio -- and you'll hear more of the same.

Health care is already rationed, of course. Those who can't afford health insurance don't get much of it, except in emergency rooms. For those who have insurance, the rationing is done by prepaid medical groups, the legacies of HMOs, that decide what drugs and procedures their members will get. Or it's done by insurance company personnel who decide what will be covered.

fett on 29/8/2009 at 16:07

Quote Posted by CCCToad

And its part of why medicare hasn't worked that well.

I'm just curious - are you on Medicare? Do you know anyone who's on Medicare?

I've been on it for almost ten years, and not the "good" kind of Medicare, like you get after you retire. I started Medicare when I was 29 years old, and as a result, have had to justify almost every single procedure or referral I've needed because a 29 year old shouldn't need too much care right? (I'm 38 now).

I've had several different types of insurance in my life - private/corporate, individual (when I owned a business), and small group when I worked for a church. I've also been on a self-pay Blue Cross/Blue Shield plan, and been covered by Cobra extensions twice. Also grew up with DODS healthcare since my dad was Air Force.

That said, Medicare is far and away the BEST, MOST COMPREHENSIVE medical care I've ever had. Especially since they started covering part of my prescription costs. They are the easiest to let me switch doctors, get referrals, and change medicines. My rates have never gone up. I've never been dropped or denied for pre-existing conditions. Additionally, Medicare is the MOST organized and consistent in their billing and notifications of coverage changes. I spend the LEAST amount of time on hold to get information, and when I get it, it's consistent with the booklet they send out like clockwork once a year. My only complaint with them is that it's difficult to get dental coverage, but it is available if I want to be arsed.

The problem with Medicare is that they're getting raped by pharmaceutical companies because they can't negotiate drug prices like private insurance. They also can't "write off" or get a deduction on patient expenses like private insurance. For my money, Medicare works just fine, and would work better if they were given the same prerogatives that private companies had - which is one of the major points of this reform bill.

As for things the government does right, or at least better than most countries:
Medicare
Medicaid
Federal Highway Commission
Penal Code
FDA
ATF
FBI
VA (Veterans Affairs)

I could probably list more. I didn't say these are perfect, but they beat the hell out of what most EU, South American, or Asian countries have. There is corruption and waste, but such is the problem with any man-made institution. In the end they do more good than harm, and that's something considering how many heads are involved.

It's interesting how most of the folks complaining about how the government can't do anything right were the same ones ready to charge into Iraq with a flag in one hand and W's cock in the other. Where was all this rage and panic when the Patriot Act was passed? Hell, I'm STILL panicked about that one...

Thief13x on 29/8/2009 at 16:43

Quote Posted by CCCToad

You're wrong to call me "fucking retarded",

It's comical that he can't figure out why I'm not reading his clusterfuck of name-calling and personal attacks...I thought maybe he'd take the hint from the quote, guess not. clean up your shit RBJ and maybe I'll consider it, otherwise it's a convenient copout for civil argument. I called people names in middle school too, but I don't have time to sift through a bunch of namecalling like I'm 9 and fighting with my little sister. I'll get back to the others later.

CCCToad on 29/8/2009 at 17:05

Quote:

The problem with Medicare is that they're getting raped by pharmaceutical companies because they can't negotiate drug prices like private insurance. They also can't "write off" or get a deduction on patient expenses like private insurance. For my money, Medicare works just fine, and would work better if they were given the same prerogatives that private companies had - which is one of the major points of this reform bill

thats exactly my point. And its also not a major point of the reform( as far as actions go,anyway, as they are trying to NOT allow drug price negotiations.)

Quote:

It's interesting how most of the folks complaining about how the government can't do anything right were the same ones ready to charge into Iraq with a flag in one hand and W's cock in the other. Where was all this rage and panic when the Patriot Act was passed? Hell, I'm STILL panicked about that one...

because they like the power, and i haven't seen any sign obama is willing to overturn it.

really, though, nobody in government is going to complain about in increase in power unless there's a partisan division.

Rug Burn Junky on 29/8/2009 at 19:52

Quote Posted by Thief13x

Wah, wah, wah... yes, I called you names, you don't deserve any better since you can't back up anything you've said. I've also kicked the shit out of the poor excuses for arguments you've made. I don't give a shit if you consider what I've said, you're an idiot.

You can pussy out because I hurt your wittle wittle feelings, or you can pussy out because you've finally realized that you're wrong. It doesn't matter to me, as long as you finally get the point that nobody has any respect whatsoever for your opinion.

------------------------------------------------
As to CCCToad:
You're a goddamned joke.

You do not have any standing to call me ignorant.

That Medicare Trustee report? I've read it. You've quoted an asshole that misconstrued it.

Robert Reich? I've met him. I've read his books. You take one quote out of context that doesn't even support your point in order to say "A-HA" and anyone with half a brain goes "WTF?"

You are out of your depth.

You continue to take shit out of context, block-quote shit from people you don't understand, and cherrypick minor trivial shit that are at best tangents.

Quote Posted by CCCToad

Au contraire, calling you retarded is generous, because at least retards usually have the humility to understand when they've been schooled.

Here's the deal, Medicare works. Plain and simple. That was all I originally said, and you've dragged us into this tangential morass of your own ignorance without ever once contradicting me. Hell, even when I originally said it, I wasn't the one making the positive assertion, Thief13x was basing his argument on the idea that Medicare DOESN'T work, taking it for granted that that was a truism, and as such, the onus is on him to show that it is indeed correct as an assumption to his argument.

Now, you, being the fucktard that you are, come along and try to prove that it doesn't WORK, by claiming that it's going to "run out of money." Which are two very different things.

I'm not going to fast for you, am I?

NEver mind the fact that what you actually cited didn't say it was going to run out of money, but rather that there are flaws in its budget, which is even further from the contention that it doesn't work. It's underfunded, perhaps, but that still says nothing about whether it works.

It's underfunded because there is a contingent of free market conservatives that are desperately trying to hamstring it by underfunding it. This is the Grover Norquist "drown it in a bathtub" philosophy, and you're just perpetuating it. We've spent the past 8 years with an administration deliberately trying to fuck it up, so that they can say "See, I told you it doesn't work." and you're fucking falling for it. That includes the nutjobs that initially pushed for the restriction on negotiating drug prices, who continue to try to block it. You're countering the people that are trying to fix this kind of shit, by taking the side of the assholes that fucked it up, and saying because those assholes fucked it up, it's never going to work.

"That guy can't run fast because I tied a 15 lb weight to his ankle"

"That doesn't mean that he can't run fast, it means that you're a fucknut who tied a 15 lb weight to his ankle, take it off and he'll run just fine."

"Nope, can't do that, he's got the weight, has to try to run with it, but he can't, so let's kill him."

So in the end, stop fucking yammering about tangential shit that you don't fully grasp. You're an embarrassment.

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Oh fucking christ. Are you serious? If I tell you "I have a 60 mile commute, and my car is broken, so my only option is to take the train," and you counter with "You COULD walk." People would think that you're fucking retarded.

Same deal here. A sales tax holiday is a drop in the bucket, and not nearly as effective as the bang for your buck that you get with stimulus spending, due to multiplier effects and incentives. So, yes, technically, you COULD have a sales tax holiday, but it wouldn't fucking do anything worthwhile. I ignored shit like that because it's trivial.

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The problem is that quite a few of the "experts" don't agree with you on the economy.

There's no economic expert taken seriously who will tell you that the economy would be in the same or better shape had we not had the stimulus. Period.

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And no, employment isn't the only statistic. It is, however, the most important because it directly affects most of the others, from consumer spending to foreclosure rates.. From former secretary of labor Robert Reich:

Again - try using that skullyolk of yours and come up with your own shit, rather than simply block-quoting irrelevant shit. What he's saying there doesn't even come close to supporting your point. Hell, it even does a better job of supporting mine ("Money in their pockets"= stimulus spending). Just because we're not going to have smooth sailing, doesn't mean that the stimulus failed. You, however, have.

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And before you jump to call him a "whacko death panel nutjob birther"

Trust me when I tell you I know more about him than you do. He's actually not even an economist, you do know at least that, right? Regardless, that quote isn't even relevant, nor is it saying anything profound, or in disagreement with what I said.

Whatever, you're a fucking leech on my time and mental resources. I don't have the time, and you obviously don't have the inclination, for me to bore through that thick rock you call a cranium and get you to understand just how off-base you are.

DDL on 29/8/2009 at 20:39

For what it's worth, I'm enjoying reading, and learning a lot from, all this (and it's summarised in nice punchy statements with accompanying insults, which is always the best kind of learning :D)..so I'm kinda hoping the..uh.. 'debate' continues.

Oh, and re: cutting sales tax, they tried that over here (reduced vat from 17.5 to 15%). Made largely no difference. Well, except it made change from everyday purchases even more stupid (99p? No no no! Now it's 97 pence! Huzzahs!), and saved me like..15 quid on a new computer.

(Which I admittedly then spent on beer, so I guess it kinda works, if you want to shore up the booze-based economy...and who doesn't?)

Thief13x on 29/8/2009 at 21:24

Quote Posted by Rug Burn Junky

Wah, wah, wah... yes, I called you names, you don't deserve any better since you can't back up anything you've said.

Quite honestly I don't feel the need to cite common knowledge...but since it's clear you have questions about some in that list I'll give it a whirl.

Medicare and social security rapidly going bankrupt

(http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/24/newsweek-how-to-solve-med_n_207152.html)

Stimulus was sold with a promise that it would keep unemployment under 8%

(http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=usunemployment&met=unemployment_rate&tdim=true&q=current+unemployment+rate)

yes that's 9.7%

Source: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

The postal service $2.8 billion in the red last fiscal year

(http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D94E7IMG0&show_article=1)

The fucking DMV

My personal favorite to bitch about:sly: but most certainly an example of a perpetual misery, while admittedly a state level agency...I pretty much just tacked it on to the end because I had to renew my license last week. touché?

That said, you will never ever persuade me that I or anyone else need to pay more in taxes, I don't care how successful or unsuccessful a given agency is, to me these bankrupt programs are just par for the course and an pain in the ass for folks trying to sell the government option. It's pretty clear to me that if you can't sell this while having pretty much total control in Washington, there maaaay be a slight problem with it.

I really don't care to say much more, especially considering the barrage of insults I'm going to get for revealing a radical left wing agenda, so I think I'll exit gracefully ASAP :D