Ulukai on 30/10/2009 at 10:07
Quote Posted by Ostriig
entire throngs;
some families; some shits
I don't really think the sarcasm was justified. I realise you can't please all of the people all of the time, either.
Quote Posted by Ostriig
To some people compulsory military service means nothing else than a year of their life they'll utterly waste doing something they'll hate.
It's not a coincidence that the more interesting, well balanaced people you'll meet in life are often the more widely travelled and experienced.
Got to spend a year doing what the man says? Boo hoo. You're just learned you can't get your own way all the time.
As I've said, everyone needs to get out their comfort zone. My support for the idea stems from it also being about broadening your horizons and interacting with people who you wouldn't necessarily meet otherwise. Hating it is irrelevant and a modern day Russian lol invasion is a complete flight of fantasy in the case of Finland.
Ostriig on 30/10/2009 at 10:50
Fair enough, I'll try to keep a more level head, but as far as I'm concerned the practice is simply abusive and unfit in the context of a modern state.
Quote:
Got to spend a year doing what the man says? Boo hoo. You're just learned you can't get your own way all the time.
As I've said, everyone needs to get out their comfort zone. My support for the idea stems from it also being about broadening your horizons and interacting with people who you wouldn't necessarily meet otherwise.
As I said, not everyone needs this lesson at that point. And I don't think the army is the only way someone can broaden their horizons, nor is it among the more effective ones, at that. Many people get enough of that just moving around in and out of countries in pursuit of a particular career.
Also, while it's less of an issue these days, I think we should not forget that we're talking about learning how to kill people and how to hopefully not get killed, which may turn out effective or not for varying reasons. You don't need a war to get killed in Demolitions, for instance.
Sgt_BFG on 30/10/2009 at 11:47
Who the fuck would want to invade us? what do we have?
At 16 years old, I look forward to my compulsory service, even though my Finnish skills are on par with a two year olds. I'm sure I'll piss off a few drill sergeants that way.
TafferLing on 30/10/2009 at 11:54
Quote Posted by Kuuso
Btw, there's an italian guy in my group in the training camp, who's studying (film) directing at his home country. He only has Finnish citizenship, but has lived his whole life in Italy, rarely visiting Finland. He got into this whole mess, when his wallet got stolen in Finland and ee reported it to the police, who similarly noticed this guy hadn't done anything about his army stuff and had a warrant on him.
Now he's in Finland, away from his real country, stuck for a year. Poor dude.
Wait... WHAT?
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http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/wowwiki/images/2/2b/Emot-psyduck.gif242 on 30/10/2009 at 12:36
Quote Posted by Kuuso
Now, I've always been a bit hesitant about compulsory army service, but it hasn't been until now that I've actually realised how human rights -stomping, violence-inducing institution it is. In practice, you either spend at least 6 months excluded from society (weekends free though) in army or get forced into a job you don't get money from for a year. Slave-work for a year, only because your ethical (or religious) stance is against killing.
Rejoice, here in Ukraine compulsory civil service is 18-27 months, even though you get paid for it, it's a small sum. And if you choose 9-12 months of compulsory army service, you can't just visit home whenever you want on weekends. But the service here isn't exactly 'compulsory', as there are lots of official exceptions, I don't think that more than 20-30% serve.
PS: Back in the USSR, we hadn't the civil service at all, and military service was 24-36 months, and as a rule faaaaaaar away from home.
Namdrol on 30/10/2009 at 13:27
How many of the "..it will make a dick swinging, hairy chested, fuckin' A kind a guy out of you.." felt like that when they were 18/19?
Now, 20 years later, I think it would be great to run around shooting guns, challenging myself and getting out of my comfort zone.
But back then, fuck that, I was too busy getting high and going out gigging and chasing women,
Ulukai on 30/10/2009 at 14:29
Quote Posted by Ostriig
I think we should not forget that we're talking about learning how to kill people and how to hopefully not get killed, which may turn out effective or not for varying reasons. You don't need a war to get killed in Demolitions, for instance.
Yes, maybe I hadn't had the trained killing in mind as much as I should have done, although lessons in risk to one's self are not without merit either.
I suppose I tend to think of national service as the education that school can't provide which is why I see no problem with it being mandatory.
Fringe on 30/10/2009 at 14:48
I'm amazed by the correlation between people in favor of forced national service and the people who bitch endlessly about motorcycle helmet laws. You know who you are. Come on, admit it--this is really about penises, isn't it?
CCCToad on 30/10/2009 at 15:50
Quote Posted by Namdrol
How many of the "..it will make a dick swinging, hairy chested, fuckin' A kind a guy out of you.." felt like that when they were 18/19?
Thing is, it often doesn't do that to people. You could just as easily end up in a water supply battalion, or a clerk in the S-1 shop as you could a hardcore, ass-slapping, hairy infantry soldier.
SD on 30/10/2009 at 16:15
Quote Posted by Shug
I daresay upping the schooling years isn't quite what I would describe as "fascist" - ill advised, perhaps. When it comes to the state serving its citizens though, one could certainly postulate that the UK has gone too far in that direction already. As I understand it, there are already second generation moochers who were brought up living in council flats with parents who were capable but never worked a day, or perhaps even had their alcohol/drug habits supported by public funds.
I would tend to see a big difference between the state increasing public reliance upon itself through a combination of poor education and welfare policies, and the state actively enabling its citizens to fulfil their potential and achieve freedom and happiness.
It's fair to say that there are good and bad ways in which states can serve the citizenry; this doesn't make the central idea of the state serving its citizens a bad one.
Quote Posted by Ulukai
I suppose I tend to think of national service as the education that school can't provide which is why I see no problem with it being mandatory.
A shame nobody ever thought to provide you with an education in the concept of consent!
