Esme on 26/6/2013 at 17:57
Quote Posted by Renzatic
...While Garrett wouldn't be a master swordsman, he'd know enough about combat to keep himself alive in a worst case scenario.
Which is exactly what you got with the crap sword combat in the first two games. You could probably beat one opponent and escape.
Vivian on 26/6/2013 at 18:00
Yeah, but it was still a game system, and it was still crappy and not fun. Which is not the same thing as difficult. You should feel like you had a thrilling and desperate battle from which you very barely escaped with your life and thank god there was only guard. Not like you just completed an annoying chore. Again, why have this system and have it not be something enjoyable?
demagogue on 26/6/2013 at 18:15
The combat in the originals was pretty easy, unless there were 2+ guards involved you could usually circle-strafe an AI to death... Even with 2+, it's still circle-strafe but you have to dodge the other one more.
Since nobody asked, TDM's swordfighting is rather sophisticated with the inspiration from actual swordplay, although some people don't like that level of complexity, but when I do get into swordfights I appreciate it. It does away with the ability to take cheap shots like circle strafing too.
From what we know of T4, I don't think I'm a fan of bullet time since it's another way of dragging us out of the world and into a game-frame, which I'm always wary of unless it's a big payoff, which I'm not sure about here. (But I grant it was good for Mirror's Edge, where speed & timing is of the essence.) Also it has the flavor of an exploit. I hope it avoids the circle-strafe exploit. As for normal combat, I think I'll reserve judgment until I watch videos, because what they say to sell the system can be different from how it actually works.
I mean, it was important for the T1 & T2 branding to say combat was very difficult, because it was part of the ethos of the game, when they had these exploits that actually sapped some of the difficulty away. With T4, we might have a situation where they're saying it's easy to brand it to a mainstream culture that likes games for combat, when it might actually be more difficult in practice.
The punchline could be a very weird inversion, where T1 had an anti-combat soul in its branding but exploits made combat not that hard, and T4 where combat might even be harder (sans the bullet time) but it has a pro-combat soul in its branding... Needless to say the soul of a game means a lot more than just how the mechanics work in practice.
Vivian on 26/6/2013 at 18:20
Reminds me, need to reinstall TDM and get busy with it.
sterlino on 26/6/2013 at 18:55
Quote Posted by Renzatic
What if you don't have any flashbombs? Should getting caught be an instant fail scenario?
Quote Posted by Brethren
Run. Flashbomb. Rope arrow. Jump in the water. Climb a ladder. I know you said if "there's no way to escape" but there's
always a way to escape.
there is so much fun avoiding the combat, why WHY WHY always do a combat style game ? boring, very boring and silly.
Tomi on 26/6/2013 at 19:18
Quote Posted by sterlino
there is so much fun avoiding the combat, why WHY WHY always do a combat style game ? boring, very boring and silly.
Combat style game? You may be right, but from what I've seen and heard, the new Thief will still be more about stealth than combat. Just because combat exists as a viable option in certain situations and it's actually fun too, doesn't mean that it's a "combat style game". Just like all the weapons and gadgets in old Thief(s) didn't make it a combat style game...
If everything goes well, stealth will still be the main thing in the new Thief, but when you fail and combat is your option, it'd be great if the melee fights were fun and challenging too. That sounds like the perfect solution for me.
Didn't anyone else ever want to have a proper sword duel in Thief? :p
SubJeff on 26/6/2013 at 19:29
Combat should be HARD. I'm all for struggling to take out a guard when you get seen and managing to just finish him off and then run and hide as his backup arrives. Or going Oh crap! and using a flash bomb.
But the more stuff I read the more it seems like they are interested in/focused on these "alternatives". This in and of itself wouldn't bother me but that rope arrow business + this = nope.
Renault on 26/6/2013 at 19:41
Quote Posted by Tomi
So let me ask you this: Why do you seem to be so much
against combat? As long as the game doesn't throw you in forced melee fights, what's the problem with improving a badly implemented feature from the older games? You can still play as stealthy as you like, but when/if you get caught and can't escape, you could still try to fight your way out instead of just loading your game.
I don't know, maybe because there's plenty of games where you just go out and kill piles of people. Thief always aimed to be different. I'm fine with headshots* and long range stealth combat, even stuff like setting traps (mines) and causing accidents and that type of thing. But up close, hand-to-hand combat seems out of place, and if you're going to steer in that direction, let's just play a fighting game or Gears of War.
My ideal Thief game would give Garret more tools and fewer weapons, preferably only his fists to directly defend himself. I'd be fine if they just got rid of the sword/broadheads/fire arrows altogether, and instead gave him improved thief tools like different types of potions or venom blow darts or even made him a little more acrobatic, anything as long as it's less about direct confrontation.
* - but not big announcements about it and awarding you XP points for it.
Esme on 26/6/2013 at 19:48
Quote Posted by Tomi
Why does the game give you tons of stuff (broadheads, fire arrows, mines, etc.) to kill your enemies in many different ways if violence is not a playstyle?
As I said it's always been an option, all of those tools can be used in non lethal ways too though
Quote Posted by Tomi
And how many times have the developers said that the new Thief is all about stealth too
Yeah, I've seen the video's of what the developers call steath and I'm not impressed yet, that may change as more information trickles out but I'm not holding my breath.
Quote Posted by Tomi
so who cares what the Thief Gold manual says? Oh, and did you miss one line in that manual?
"In a desperate situation, a frontal one-on-one melee may be the best option."I repeat:
"In a desperate situation, a frontal one-on-one melee may be the best option." Sounds a bit violent, eh? :p
No I believe I quoted that line
Quote Posted by Esme
P15: Combat
Sometimes, thieving can be made easier by a measured application of force, Usually this means a stealthy sword-blow from behind or a well placed arrow shot from a place of concealment. In a desperate situation, a frontal one-on-one melee may be the best option. Hey, it's always good to keep your options open! To attack with any weapon, use the attack button
I've underlined it so you know I didn't miss it the first time, perhaps you missed the important part that "a melee may be the best option in a desperate situation" i.e. a situation you have been trying to avoid by playing stealthily.
If you get caught and you have no choice, then try and rambo your way out, it might work, no problem here, but as far as I'm concerned it's your own fault if you get killed, be more stealthy next time that's the primary game mechanic and the skill you are trying to develop after all.
Now, as to why anyone cares what's in the Thief 1/Gold manual, well as it was the first of the series it defined the genre, combat in The Metal Age stayed pretty close to the same definition, when Deadly shadows came out melee combat was still reserved for desperate situations, although the dagger was seen as more of an assassination tool by some, auto equipping the player with it as the default weapon instead of a blackjack reinforced the view that the player was being encouraged to kill rather than use non lethal methods, but still you were discouraged from going toe-to-toe with an AI.
The combat system in Thief has always been rubbish, and I see no reason to improve it as the game is primarily about stealthily taking everything that isn't nailed down and disappearing without anyone knowing you're there, oh and saving the world as a by product.
What it's never been about are visually appealing* slomo QTE fight sequences, that really aren't capable of being lost, to pander to people who lose patience if the game is 'too hard'.
* - see I avoided the K word viv
Vivian on 26/6/2013 at 20:02
thanks man!
