Renault on 26/6/2013 at 17:18
Quote Posted by Tomi
What makes it a non-viable option in your opinion?
Garrett was trained in combat by the Keepers. Guards are policemen, more than likely trained extensively by military methods to defend The City. Who do you think would win? Garrett taking on the City Watch face to face is not a practical solution to being caught. It's much more likely he would run and avoid confrontation. Especially if it's 3 on 1.
Quote Posted by Tomi
And what do you do when you get caught and there's no way to escape?
Run. Flashbomb. Rope arrow. Jump in the water. Climb a ladder. I know you said if "there's no way to escape" but there's
always a way to escape.
Quote Posted by Tomi
But... but... fighting (most of the) enemies face to face was almost ridiculously easy in the older games? :confused:
"Ridiculously easy" is subjective, everyone's skill level is different. But why are you trying so adamantly to defend combat - don't you essentially believe it was against the spirit of the original games? Do you think it (combat) should be a equal alternative to sneaking in a Thief game?
Esme on 26/6/2013 at 17:23
Violence is an option, not a playstyle, in Thief and never has been.
From the Thief Gold manual I have in my hand
Quote:
P7: Introduction(last para)
More often, however, the road to riches is dark and silent. You will have tools designed to deceive your enemies, tools which can better keep you out of danger, and tools to help you get into hard-to-reach places. You are a thief, not a warrior. So keep your wits about you, and you won't lose your head
Quote:
P15: Combat
Sometimes, thieving can be made easier by a measured application of force, Usually this means a stealthy sword-blow from behind or a well placed arrow shot from a place of concealment. In a desperate situation, a frontal one-on-one melee may be the best option. Hey, it's always good to keep your options open! To attack with any weapon, use the attack button
Quote:
Page 23: You are not a tank
The most important thing to remember about Thief: The Dark Project is that you are not an unstoppable fighting machine, If you're planning on making bold frontal assaults on multiple foes at once, go get fitted for your coffin now.
So basically, even when saying you can kill if you need to Thief still advocates being stealthy about it, the only exception being when the situation is desperate, i.e. you got caught, I don't see the point in rewarding people who get caught with kewl slomo QTE fight sequences as this will encourage them to do it again.
Melan on 26/6/2013 at 17:34
Quote Posted by Brethren
Right on the money there, Esme. The naysayers will claim that the original Thief games had Garrett killing guards in the intros, and swordplay in the training mission, but hand-to-hand combat was never supposed to be viable option for Garrett, only a desperation move. And LGS never would have come up with any kind of Focus system, highlighting guards weak points and slowing down time so Garrett could inflict pinpoint damage, so I don't know how anyone can justify that.
Don't forget that a lot of people see Thief's gameplay as (
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrcFKLwhfbI) these idiots from GameInformer's retrospective. Watch it, it is annoying but very instructive. They are not the target audience
per se, but they are the lowest common denominator whose preferences will set the tone, difficulty, writing level and general gameplay of this title. Focus groups will guarantee this.
Vivian on 26/6/2013 at 17:38
Can we have a moratorium on saying kewl please, it sets my teeth on edge. It automatically gives me a picture of the person saying it as someone who has never left the house, touched a girl/boy, been to a club etc etc. Basically I'm saying it makes you sound like a massive ween.
oh yeah, and combat. If you're going to have a combat system you might as well have one that works I suppose. Excusing the crappy combat system in the old thiefs as 'oh but you were never supposed to use it' doesn't really scan. Why is it there then? But yeah, 'oh we stuck in QTE's because we don't know how to make combat fun otherwise' is a bit of a limp rocket, innit? Phewp.
Esme on 26/6/2013 at 17:43
Quote Posted by Vivian
Can we have a moratorium on saying kewl please, it sets my teeth on edge. It automatically gives me a picture of the person saying it as someone who has never left the house, touched a girl/boy, been to a club etc etc. Basically I'm saying it makes you sound like a massive ween.
Kewl I was shooting for 'never leaves the house lifetime virgin' too :cheeky:
Can I use 'awesum' and 'sweeeeeet' instead ?
Vivian on 26/6/2013 at 17:45
You're not really harming my case, I must say.
nickie on 26/6/2013 at 17:46
Quote Posted by Melan
. . . Watch it, it is annoying but very instructive.
Instructive? In the first few seconds he knocks someone out in 'total' darkness and carefully carries him to a place of semi-darkness. :laff:
Admittedly that is all I've seen so far.
Esme on 26/6/2013 at 17:51
Quote Posted by Vivian
You're not really harming my case, I must say.
As you asked nicely ixnay on the ewlkay ;)
At least until I forget and use it again anyway.
Renzatic on 26/6/2013 at 17:53
Quote Posted by sterlino
YOU FAIL ! ...and die..:grr:
:sweat:
.....
...Or simply use a flashbomb :idea:
:mad::mad::mad:
What if you don't have any flashbombs? Should getting caught be an instant fail scenario?
I don't think I have to tell you how much fun that wouldn't be. I remember the first stealth game I played where getting caught resulted in an immediate game over: Splinter Cell. There was a bit where I knocked out a guard, and had to hide the body. Because I didn't do it exactly the way the game intended, I'd get to this one point, and suddenly see a "you were detected, mission aborted" screen (despite the fact there wasn't anyone around to find it...), and had to reload my save game and attempt to hide the body yet again. Making sure it was 100% covered in pure, darkest shadow. Even then, it seemed to be pure chance if the game would consider it hidden or not.
It sucked. Fail scenarios should only be because you're not good enough and nothing more. If you have a conceivable chance of escaping, you should be able to use it. While Garrett wouldn't be a master swordsman, he'd know enough about combat to keep himself alive in a worst case scenario.
Tomi on 26/6/2013 at 17:57
Quote Posted by Esme
Violence is an option, not a playstyle, in Thief and never has been.
From the Thief Gold manual I have in my hand
Why does the game give you tons of stuff (broadheads, fire arrows, mines, etc.) to kill your enemies in many different ways if violence is not a playstyle?
And how many times have the developers said that the new Thief is all about stealth too, so who cares what the Thief Gold manual says? Oh, and did you miss one line in that manual?
"In a desperate situation, a frontal one-on-one melee may be the best option."I repeat:
"In a desperate situation, a frontal one-on-one melee may be the best option." Sounds a bit violent, eh? :p
Quote Posted by Brethren
Garrett was trained in combat by the Keepers. Guards are policemen, more than likely trained extensively by military methods to defend The City. Who do you think would win? Garrett taking on the City Watch face to face is not a practical solution to being caught. It's much more likely he would run and avoid confrontation. Especially if it's 3 on 1.
That's how it
should be, I agree! But that's not how it is - at least I find it really easy to beat the guards in sword combat, and I'm hardly some pro player, far from it actually!
Quote:
Run. Flashbomb. Rope arrow. Jump in the water. Climb a ladder. I know you said if "there's no way to escape" but there's
always a way to escape.
I agree again. But since combat has always been an option in Thief (and there may be cases where it really could be the only option, especially if the AI is any smarter), why not add combat on that list?
Quote:
But why are you trying so adamantly to defend combat - don't you essentially believe it was against the spirit of the original games? Do you think it (combat) should be a equal alternative to sneaking in a Thief game?
Nah, I don't think it should be an equal alternative, nowhere near that, I think it should be the "if all else fails" solution. I don't feel that I'm adamantly defending combat, I just thought that it was one of the biggest flaws of the classic Thief games and I'd like to see it fixed in the new Thief. There were so many ways to get advantage of the stupid enemy AI that escaping was often your best option indeed, but where's the fun in that? Jumping on a large enough kitchen table was often a viable survival strategy. And combat wasn't much better, these guards certainly didn't look like they were trained extensively by military methods. I didn't find combat fun at all. So what did I do when I got caught by the guards in Thief? I quickloaded the game. :p In most cases, anyway, because the alternatives weren't too much fun. And that's the worst possible solution, the greatest immersion killer of them all.
So let me ask you this: Why do you seem to be so much
against combat? As long as the game doesn't throw you in forced melee fights, what's the problem with improving a badly implemented feature from the older games? You can still play as stealthy as you like, but when/if you get caught and can't escape, you could still try to fight your way out instead of just loading your game.
Quote Posted by sterlino
...Or simply use a flashbomb :idea:
Pfft... the flashbomb+blackjack combo was one of the most annoying things in old Thief. :p
