Brian The Dog on 3/12/2007 at 12:33
Quote Posted by fett
Also, on the subject of hell: It is not primarily defined in the bible as a place of physical anguish, brimstone, etc. - most of this idea is a modern extrapolation based on a few scriptures and Dante's Inferno. The concept of hell as understood in the context of scripture is a spiritual separation from god for all eternity - thus a place of mental, psychological, emotional, and spiritual suffering. Jesus speaks of 'the lake of fire' and 'outer darkness' but it is typically in parables which are not useful for forming doctrine (though people often do so for their own purposes).
As a follow-on point, the concept of hell depends on where you look in the bible. The old testament simply speaks of the land of the dead where all people went (good or bad), whereas Jesus (when he mentions what we translate as hell) talks about Gehenna, which was the local refuse-tip outside Jerusalem - people took their rubbish there to be burnt. The whole idea of hell being a place of eternal suffering etc is not specifically mentioned in the bible (afaik) and is a more modern interpretation, mainly from Dante's stuff, as Fett mentions. So "hell" is more of a concept than an actual place, hence Jesus' talking about seperation from God etc.
The stuff about the lake of fire etc, which fett mentions, is in Revelation, which pretty much uses figurative language throughout and is not meant to be taken literally.
PigLick on 3/12/2007 at 12:35
well, shut my mouth
Scots Taffer on 3/12/2007 at 12:41
Quote Posted by PigLick
i had this amazing reply , but the internet swallowed it up
all I can say now is 2 girls 1 cup
You're a sick man, PigLick.
PigLick on 3/12/2007 at 13:01
dont shoot the messenger
Scots Taffer on 3/12/2007 at 13:10
Makes you proud to have a daughter, am i rite
PigLick on 3/12/2007 at 13:16
fuck yeh
PigLick on 3/12/2007 at 13:19
why do I do this
PigLick on 3/12/2007 at 13:20
also, 2 girls 1 cup is the like the new all your base/other memes thingy, just getting in on the ground floor
fett on 3/12/2007 at 13:40
Quote Posted by 37637598
See Fett, now it's all starting to come together! Still one part though, If we are a part of God, God is a part of us, how is it that we can be seperated from him?
Scripturally speaking we are not 'part' of God nor is he 'part' of us, the relationship is that of creator/created. The idea your speaking of is more rooted in pagan and nature religions. You might be thinking of Christ saying 'I am in you and you are in me', the 'am in' part of the grammar there speaking mentally and figuratively (<stretching the verb a little) in the sense of 'abiding in the knowledge and fellowship' of him - not of being literally 'part of' him.
The concept of separation from god is part of the idea that god is entirely 'holy' and 'without sin' - humans being sinful creatures cannot be in the presence of god (spirituall/afterlife/eternity/etc.) because it would render him less than he is and therefore diminish his holiness or "god-ness" (I'm sparing you all the theological language here). Therefore the idea that Jesus removes said sin and makes you then able to be in the presence of god.
As this relates to hell, it gets a little dicey - if God is omnipresent (and the bible certainly maintains the claim that he is), how can anyone be 'apart from his presence' in hell? Does god at that point in human history remove his consciousness from those people who are in hell? This is a theological loop-de-loop that theologians spit a lot of Latin at seeking to reconcile the two things, but I've never seen it done convincingly. This problem has also spurned a group of people within the mainstream church called the 'abolitionists' who believe that god snuffs the existence of those who die without the removal of said sin - in other words they just cease to exist as entities instead of suffering eternity in hell. This isn't a salvation related or primary theological issue so you'll find Christians somewhat divided on the question, and generally agreeable to disagree about it.
SD - The defense for the shocking number of God induced deaths in the bible runs along the lines of God eradicating nations/people that threatened the welfare of Israel and were pretty much wiping themselves out through genocide and violent religious rituals anyway. The OT revolves around God protecting Israel because it was through them that he would bring forth a Messiah to save mankind from eternal
death. It's a very 'ends justifies the means' mentality that makes wonder why an omniscient, all-powerful, loving deity can't find another way to accomplish his all important plan. I even wrote a book defending god on this issue that almost got published, but regardless, it's something that just never sat right with me, no matter how much theology and long-view logic I threw at it.
