Scots Taffer on 9/12/2007 at 05:31
Your so-called life is the collected fragments of your genetic past that are swirling around in your head as you await to be born from the womb, each of our lives is leading up to being born, death is an act of creation, the end of a story that we have filled in the blanks, each of us is asleep, each of us are in the great womb, waiting to be born, waiting to wake up.
Scots Taffer on 9/12/2007 at 05:33
You're in a coma after an accident you had in your youth, we've all had one, everyone has, at some point you had an accident and from that point on, everything has been a dream. You're lying in ICU, your muscles atrophied, your lungs and vital organs assisted by machinery, your heart beat is in fact the beep of the heart rate monitor and they're either going to pull the plug, or you'll wish they had.
jtr7 on 9/12/2007 at 05:55
History, as a subject, is not a science. The study of history is. History contains an ever-unknown percentage of propaganda, embellishment, interpretation, and flat-out lies including lies by omission. History contains science and science is used to craft it. Science is needed to determine fact from fiction.
"History is written by the victors." --Winston Churchill
"And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed—if all records told the same tale—then the lie passed into history and became truth. 'Who controls the past' ran the Party slogan, 'controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.'" --George Orwell, 1984
On the other hand, humanity, representing a spectrum of thought, has members who strive to be honest, bold, and accurate in how they describe and document events.
Humanity is doomed to repeat itself, with each generation believing it has more facts than the others.
Starrfall on 9/12/2007 at 16:12
Quote Posted by Scots Taffer
You're in a coma after an accident you had in your youth, we've all had one, everyone has, at some point you had an accident and from that point on, everything has been a dream. You're lying in ICU, your muscles atrophied, your lungs and vital organs assisted by machinery, your heart beat is in fact the beep of the heart rate monitor and they're either going to pull the plug, or you'll wish they had.
I think I saw that movie something about vanilla eyes wasn't it.
Jenesis on 9/12/2007 at 20:52
Quote Posted by Chimpy Chompy
You then launch into talk of how we've somehow done something wrong - using an adulterous wife as an example. Why is this the case? If your argument is based on what the bible says then, well, we're questioning if the bible is right here, so your argument is in danger of being rather circular.
Indeed. But because of the Bible's claims, it
must be circular. The Bible claims that it is the Word of God, and that as such it is the ultimate authority we humans have. But if it
is the ultimate authority, there is nothing else to which it can appeal for verification. If something else was in a position to validate the Bible, then it would be an authority greater than the Bible, and the Bible wouldn't be the ultimate authority it claims to be. Any claim to final authority must be circular or it collapses on itself.
This, then, also impacts on some of the other things you said - why do I believe Jesus when he says he's the only way? Because, having read the Bible, I trust him. Why do I trust that the Bible's portrayal of Jesus is accurate at that point, or any other? Because in the Bible Jesus promised that it would be accurate. Yes, it is circular, but it must be.
SD on 9/12/2007 at 20:56
If you "trust Jesus", do you believe that slavery is okay then? Jesus certainly did. And if not, why not?
Chimpy Chompy on 9/12/2007 at 21:08
Quote Posted by Jenesis
Any claim to final authority must be circular or it collapses on itself.
So maybe there aren't any valid claims to final authority.
Anyway if someone else's religion is based on such circular arguments, how do you know which loop to get stuck in?
Spaztick on 9/12/2007 at 21:45
Quote:
Anyway if someone else's religion is based on such circular arguments, how do you know which loop to get stuck in?
I'd go with whichever reconciles God with man. Religion itself is nothing more than a tool that man uses to try and reconcile himself with God, yet the biggest fault of most religions is that they impose perfect rules on an imperfect man, or another way to say it is they impose holy rules on an unholy man and yet imperfect man can't always follow the perfect rules and reconcile with God.
As a trivial piece I looked up the definition of religion. It comes from the French
religiun, from Latin
religio, from what is accepted as
(re)ligare - to (re)bind, to (re)connect. So the definition of religion is in the vernacular "a set of belief or rituals that attempt to rebind or reconnect." In this case religion holds the definition of trying to reconnect to God through rituals, which man is unable to do by himself. Heck look at history, when has man ever been consistent with holiness? Ever? Even the Jewish people as a whole went back and forth what, 9 times between Jersualem being established, enslaved by the Babylonians and Egyptians and returning to Israel? I really don't know, I didn't count when I was reading the Old Testament, but the point is, if a religion can successfully reconcile man with God then you have a working religion. Religion by itself isn't able to do that, you need God Himself to do that.
I think of it as actually talking to a person you deeply care for and them for you. I don't want to say the relationship between a wife and husband because that isn't quite accurate, but it's the kind of love I can compare it to. Can you have someone else talk to them for you and have the same effect? Can do you a series of ritual or chores to make them care more or forgive you for doing something stupid? If anyone here is married you'd say no, screwing up in a relationship with your spouse doesn't get fixed by doing something for them, it's fixed by apologizing and asking for forgiveness from them. God in the Old Testament compares Israel turning away from him to worship other Gods (or themselves) is compared to a spouse committing adultery, which I think shows the emotional impact perfectly. You have this deep love for someone you care about and yet this deep hurt and anger because of what they did. I could go on about it but I think I summed up my point to a one sentence question rather thoroughly.
Quote Posted by SD
If you "trust Jesus", do you believe that slavery is okay then? Jesus certainly did. And if not, why not?
Would you care to find that for me? I think God hated slavery, seeing as how he freed His chosen people from Egyptian rule, which parallels God in the form of a man named Jesus freeing all of man from slavery to themselves. There are references to slavery throughout the Old Testament and the letters Paul had written to the churches, so you would have to get more specific than that.
SD on 9/12/2007 at 22:55
Quote Posted by Spaztick
Would you care to find that for me?
Parable of the faithful servant (Luke 12:37-48)?
Quote Posted by the "Son of God"
Blessed are those slaves whom the master finds alert when he comes; truly I tell you, he will fasten his belt and have them sit down to eat, and he will come and serve them.
If he comes during the middle of the night, or near dawn, and finds them so, blessed are those slaves. ‘But know this: if the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. You also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an unexpected hour.'
Peter said, ‘Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for everyone?' And the Lord said, ‘Who then is the faithful and prudent manager whom his master will put in charge of his slaves, to give them their allowance of food at the proper time?
Blessed is that slave whom his master will find at work when he arrives. Truly I tell you, he will put that one in charge of all his possessions.
But if that slave says to himself, “My master is delayed in coming”, and if he begins to beat the other slaves, men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk, the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour that he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and put him with the unfaithful.
That slave who knew what his master wanted, but did not prepare himself or do what was wanted, will receive a severe beating. But one who did not know and did what deserved a beating will receive a light beating.
Matthew 10:24-25?
Quote Posted by Jesus again
Disciples are not better than their teacher, and slaves are not better than their master. It is enough for disciples to be like their teacher and for slaves to be like their master.
He also forgot to mention slavery in the Sermon on the Mount.
Quote Posted by Spaztick
I think God hated slavery, seeing as how he freed His chosen people from Egyptian rule
This is the same God who decreed that thou shalt not kill, and then proceeded to slaughter people by the million. It's fair to say that his likes and dislikes changed with the wind.
Quote Posted by Spaztick
There are references to slavery throughout the Old Testament and the letters Paul had written to the churches
You're right, Paul is also a big fan of slavery. In fact, this most heinous and immoral practice is endorsed right through the Bible. As Jefferson Davis put it: "Slavery was established by decree of Almighty God. It is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation."
jtr7 on 9/12/2007 at 23:02
Yeah, it's pretty easy to make anybody sound foolish when you ignore context--textual, historical, and cultural context. The biblical God is pretty definite about things, it's people that keeping making the decisions that result in the rules.
Random thoughts:
God's not impressed by people of high position. God's not unaware of people in low position. The strata of society is part of our nature. Working within that context, we have the poor, the servants, the slaves, and those over them. The poor will always be with us. How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. Remember the poor woman who gave all she had, which wasn't much compared to the wealthy man's donation, but her's had the greater value. Remember Job, who lost everything, but kept his faith, and gained far more than he ever had.
The lowly aren't blessed because they are lowly, they are blessed because God has seen their plight, and the life to come is far greater. Also, to whom much is given, much is required.
This life is but a vapor compared to eternity. The spiritual takes precedence over the physical, in the grand scheme of things.
God concerns himself with the heart, not the outward appearance, or material things. Remember the author of Ecclesiastes, who experimented with all the kinds of wealth humanity deems important, and found it all meaningless.
Humble yourself and God will lift you up.
The first shall be last, and the last shall be first.
It's not a condoning of slavery, it's an acknowledgement that it is prevalent and a part of human nature, which comes with a promise of recompence. Better to be a slave than a cruel slaver come the Judgment.
