fett on 2/12/2007 at 23:00

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It's fine. I've got my fan plugged in and a huge bucket of shit on standby. For the record, I'll leave what I personally believe out of the conversation as much as possible since it tends to muddy the waters. Also I really don't care about the issue enough anymore to have an argument over it.

Lesson 1: Gentiles are dumbasses. If you begin with this premise as you approach theological issues, you'll be one step ahead of the crowd.

It's not so much a matter of Jesus stating in the exact words 'I Am God' - I count at least 146 (possibly 148) other Jewish men claiming this in the first century.

You have to remember that Jesus wasn't trying to convince the Gentiles (Romans) that he was god. They didn't care and he knew it. The trick was to convince the Jewish people, and particularly to present proof of this to the religious leaders at the time - the Sadducee controlled Sanhedrin (long digression here into 1st century Jewish social/civil law that I will skip for the time being).

Jesus did this by declaring himself to be a number of different things - 'the light of the world', 'the bread of life', 'Lord of the Sabbath' etc. He claimed to be these (and 4 other things in the account of John) at specific times -usually during one of the Jewish feasts (there are 7 holy days or festivals that are observed - each recalling or foreshadowing the fulfillment of promises made to the Jewish commonwealth throughout their history).

A good example of this would be in John 8 where he declares himself 'the light of the world' - read the text carefully and you'll see that he did that at the 'festival of lights' (more commonly known as Feast of Tabernacles). Most likely during the lighting of the gimungous menorah at the Temple - the light representing, of course, God's truth shone to the world through Abraham and the Jewish people.

Now: If you're Jewish, standing in the crowd when this thing is lit and some guy yells out "Hey - the light you're looking at, this ceremony you've been observing for hundreds of years - It's representative of ME." - you would have no doubt that this guy just claimed to be God.

So he did this plus six other things that most of the gospel accounts record. Add to this his claims to forgive sin, raise the dead, grant eternal life, etc. - according to the Jewish (Pharasaic) theology of the day, and based on OT prophecy, only God could do, you have a very loud and definitive claim to deity.

In short - the reason I gave you lesson 1 at the beginning is because people get hung up on 'He never really SAID he was god' while they're looking for that exact phrase. To the Jewish person of the day, he said that he was at least 10-12 times (that were recorded), and he said it in a way that was enormously more forceful and clear than simply saying 'I am God!'. By tying himself to the 7 festivals/holidays, he was claiming that the entire history and religious observance practiced since Abraham pointed directly to himself in both archetype and pre-figure.


Edit: + what jtr7 said - that is actually a HUGE deal to the 1st century Jew. They wouldn't have tried to stone him unless they considered this a claim to deity.

Scots Taffer on 2/12/2007 at 23:34

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Why did God take away my grandmother? :(

fett on 3/12/2007 at 00:14

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That's actually a giant dong. True story.





Your grandmother was evil and had to die.


Next question.

maxmon on 3/12/2007 at 00:34

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Next Question:

Why do deformed Christians state that there physical or mental condition is a "Gift" from God?

Scots Taffer on 3/12/2007 at 00:47

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I posted it rather tongue-in-cheekly, so fett's jokey response doesn't sting at all. It's like one of those retarded "if God's so good why'd he let little Timmie die" comments. I hate those.