Pyrian on 19/1/2018 at 04:59
Quote Posted by Malf
Even so, do you really consider it an arrestable offense? Are games
really that important to you?
Strange forum to ask that question in, lol. Sure, why wouldn't it be? What's so ignoble about games that suddenly the laws don't apply anymore? If someone breaks your $40 lamp, they're a vandal. If someone breaks your $40 Monopoly board game, they're still a vandal. If someone hacks your $40 multiplayer videogame and profits off selling their cheat widely enough that it's difficult or impossible to play a fair game anymore... Yeah, they should face legal consequences. The law doesn't really need to judge whether one $40 item is sufficiently "important" and another isn't. I wouldn't call it stealing per se - it's more like vandalism, and it IS hacking - but it's awfully similar if the victim is out money and the perpetrator is up money. If they hacked into a bank and came out richer at the expense of other bank patrons, you better believe the law would come down on them like a ton of bricks, no matter the indirection involved.
Malf on 19/1/2018 at 08:41
Sorry Pyrian, but your comparisons aren't good.
It's more like one of the players ignoring the rules and just choosing to do what they please. At the end of the day, you can still play the game again. The cheater hasn't broken it.
And how would you treat someone who ignores the dice rolls and just does whatever they choose to in a game of Monopoly?
Would you call the police?
But even this comparison is flawed, as in those circumstances, you can choose to kick that person out of the game when it becomes apparent they have no regard for the rules. It's still useful though, as it is more morally equivalent than the destruction of property put forward in your last post.
My point being, while cheating and the manufacture of cheats is a pain in the ass, it is not the responsibility of the criminal justice system to address.
That responsibility lies with the game's participants and developers.
And as long as doing well in the game has a financial incentive associated with it, it will attract a higher percentage of cheating players and the makers of the cheats they use.
Additionally, you are aware that legally, not all "hacking" is considered criminal, right?
WingedKagouti on 19/1/2018 at 13:33
Quote Posted by Malf
Additionally, you are aware that legally, not all "hacking" is considered criminal, right?
Depends on the jurisdiction. Some places have rather strict laws on the subject. I suspect that China is one such place.
trefoilknot on 19/1/2018 at 15:34
After careful analysis, I've determined that all of Malf's arguments are logically equivalent to:
"Should fabricating bit coin REALLY be a crime? It's just a made-up currency anyway."
Bitcoin is a virtual asset that has no innate value, yet has a real world market price (which right now is unbelievably high). Assets in Plunkbat also have real world prices. If you cheat in such a way that it advantages you in the game, you can (and in many cases DO) literally make money off your ill-gotten advantage. By extension, players who do not cheat are losing money, or at the very least, losing *potential* money. If I were playing monopoly, and at the end of the game we all trade in our winnings for USD, then perhaps I would call the cops on a cheater. Ever heard of a little game called poker? If you go to a Nevada casino and cheat at poker, you're looking at a felony charge.
Moreover, they aren't going after cheaters (even though they've broken the law). They're going after the folks who have created the infrastructure to facilitate cheating, and are selling it for money. In essence, they're not arresting junkies, they're arresting dealers.
Malf on 19/1/2018 at 16:53
Junkies and dealers is not the right equivalent. A better one would be dice-roulette gamblers and the manufacturers of loaded dice.
And in those circumstances, I honestly don't know if a manufacturer of loaded dice has been arrested or shut-down. I would have to research further.
Interestingly, if we take your card-game analogy further, card-counting devices aren't illegal in (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_counting#Legal_status) either the UK or the US.
Would you consider card-counting to be cheating?
And your Nevada example? Interesting in that it is pretty much unique. Cheating at poker doesn't appear to be illegal anywhere else. I would guess I'm reading from the same (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheating_in_casinos) Wikipedia article you pulled that from.
There was a fascinating article in (
https://www.wired.com/2014/10/cheating-video-poker/) Wired back in 2014 about a couple of guys who discovered a bug in slot machine software, and went on to successfully exploit it. When the case went to court, it was eventually dismissed.
I whole-heartedly recommend reading it. It's an excellent piece of writing, with a fantastic sense of drama.
And again with (
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:6ee7AvpdM3QJ:https://www.wired.com/story/meet-alex-the-russian-casino-hacker-who-makes-millions-targeting-slot-machines/+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-b) Wired (sorry for the cached page; the original no longer appears to be online), there was a piece on a Russian hacker called "Alex" who ran an international slot machine cheating ring. Again, no prosecution.
Those articles should hopefully help you realise something:
No matter the offence people take from others cheating in games, outside of sporting competitions, that
very specific Nevada example and now this arrest in China, actual prosecution for cheating or the manufacture of devices that help people to cheat is
incredibly rare.
Long may it remain so.
Oh, and in a game of poker, all players contribute to the pot. In Plunkbat, you don't pay-per-play. The feeling that players are losing money thanks to cheaters and cheat makers gains is illusory.
Sulphur on 19/1/2018 at 17:09
It's almost like people don't read the stuff I post. :D
1) Card counting is technically gaming the system and generally isn't encouraged in casinos if it's noticed you're doing it
2) Cheating in casinos is illegal depending on where you live: how it's prosecuted is down to the individual establishment. Yes, that's mostly Nevada.
3) Cheats are not strictly equivalent to card-counting because the analogous, er, skill in PlunkBat is simply being able to read every other competitor's HP. A person counting cards isn't circumventing the game's rules through external means, they're using math to exploit the game. While it's not fun playing off these folks, it's not in the same league as invulnerability, infinite ammo, or wallhacks
4) People playing Plunkbat have 'contributed to the pot' so to speak by purchasing the game. That entitles you to an expectation of getting your money's worth in either the long- or short-term.
trefoilknot on 19/1/2018 at 17:24
Finding a bug and exploiting it is very different from hacking. Both are arguably cheap tactics, but only one of them is cheating. Back to the cards analogy, counting cards is an exploit. Sliding cards from your sleeve into your hand is cheating.
Also, the notion that "losing money thanks to cheaters and cheat makers gains is illusory" is completely ridiculous. Just b/c they're not stealing directly from your pocket doesn't mean you aren't losing out. If we're competing for a prize, and you cheat to win the prize, you have stolen from me. Just because I never had the money to begin with, doesn't in any way change the harm which I've experienced. Maybe it feels different, emotionally, but they are economically equivalent.
Malf on 19/1/2018 at 17:36
Quote Posted by trefoilknot
Finding a bug and exploiting it is very different from hacking. Both are arguably cheap tactics, but only one of them is cheating. Back to the cards analogy, counting cards is an exploit. Sliding cards from your sleeve into your hand is cheating.
Also, the notion that "losing money thanks to cheaters and cheat makers gains is illusory" is completely ridiculous. Just b/c they're not stealing directly from your pocket doesn't mean you aren't losing out. If we're competing for a prize, and you cheat to win the prize, you have stolen from me. Just because I never had the money to begin with, doesn't in any way change the harm which I've experienced. Maybe it feels different, emotionally, but they are economically equivalent.
So you're playing to make money?
Might want to look into a more stable income.
Sorry, that's rather glib of me.
But it does serve to highlight something else that I think is a tragedy in modern videogames: that it's not just the publishers and developers who are greedy now.
trefoilknot on 19/1/2018 at 17:43
Ah, yes. I forgot that whether something is a crime or not depends on whether your subjective opinion makes the victim worthy of our sympathy. Thanks for clarifying that.