Gingerbread Man on 22/6/2005 at 19:22
No, the bleeding-heart explanations I'm talking about are the ones that attempt to shift responsibility from the lack of immediate social structure (or lack thereof), the parents, the kids themselves, and all other human influences and onto things like "they're food are bad" and "teh rock music" and "zomg violant movies" etc.
For every ghetto-bred drug-addicted gangbanger you can find a ghetto-bred hardworking and decent father, and I think everyone knows that.
But, that said, correlation doesn't imply causality. So while the "prisoners are more likely to be taken into care" sort of approach might well be the case, we need much more definite and directional evidence before I'll be happy to cede the point entirely.
I spent two years up to my eyes in the sociology of deviant behaviour / crime and criminality / etc, so I'm well-versed in the theory and believe pretty strongly in the validity of the concepts. I just require more solid evidence before I'll hold those positions with a firmer grip, that's all.
Agent Monkeysee on 22/6/2005 at 19:23
edit: ^^ okay I can get behind that. I think you're right, it seems the focus is too much on what would amount to proximate causes at best. "Determining what social and cultural factors may be contributing to the complex web of interactions that result in anti-social behavior is too hard, so let's see what's in the water. Maybe we could ban hoodies or something".
Quote Posted by Gingerbread Man
I think one of the reasons everyone starts looking for a bleeding-heart explanation for yobs is that they forgot there have
ALWAYS BEEN YOBS OF SOME DESCRIPTION IN EVERY SOCIETY.
But it seems like there's been a big rise in the number of incidents and the ubiquitiousness of it. Maybe not, but a healthy number of Brits on this very board have had run-ins with them.
Maybe it's always been like that but that certainly doesn't seem to be the perception. For whatever reason deliquents seem to be more widespread and bolder than in previous years. There's got to be some explanation for that, some change in social conditions or something.
The shit-kicking American in me wants to say it's because you've all become a bunch of pussies, but that's not very productive :cool:
Gingerbread Man on 22/6/2005 at 19:25
Quote Posted by Agent Monkeysee
But it seems like there's been a big rise in the number of incidents and the ubiquitiousness of it.
There seems to have been a huge rise in the number of starving Africans in the past 25 years or so. Or wait, is that just because I've been hearing about them on the news?
And it would seem that Iraq suddenly has way more cities and towns than before. Five years ago I think they just had Baghdad...
(I'm not actually arguing the point with you... or arguing with Strontium Dog, for that matter. I'm just kinda tempering the viewpoint with a bit of alternate theory)
Agent Monkeysee on 22/6/2005 at 19:28
Quote Posted by Gingerbread Man
There seems to have been a huge rise in the number of starving Africans in the past 25 years or so. Or wait, is that just because I've been hearing about them on the news?
I understand what you're saying. I'm just skeptical that this is simply "business as usual".
Chimpy Chompy on 22/6/2005 at 19:30
This is where input from any Brits in the 30+ range would be useful. Is the yob problem genuinely worse than it used to be?
Gingerbread Man on 22/6/2005 at 19:32
Well, also prevalence seems to increase as population increases. And aging populations are far more likely to report crime. And 5% of 100 seems like way less than 5% of 200,000. And such.
Certainly there are alarming trends towards a more of a Alex And His Droogs behaviour in youth gangs over the past thirty years, and that most likely has to do with availability of anti-social options.
Also when there are only heinous things forbidden, you're left with only heinous crimes to commit. School-uniform Theory, yeah?
I dunno. I have a dozen opinions and they're all disjointed. These kinds of discussion need to take place across a table strewn with beers and food and ashtrays.
If I were in charge, yobs would be shot in the knees and then asked to pay for their wheelchairs. That's all I'm saying. :D
Paz on 22/6/2005 at 19:35
I think anyone suggesting that the removal of dole money would make poorly educated, deprived, pissed-off people less pissed-off hasn't quite thought this one through. From entertainingly anecdotal evidence, I also don't believe this is as clear-cut 'class' issue as people often think.
My town is bourgeois heaven. It has shitloads of chavs. Albeit ones which appear somewhat less violent than in these other tales. What's that all about then?
They're all undeniably cuntish, but it's annoying how these discussions always seem to return rational people to their most cuntish state too. I know this is true, because it happens to me too (plus, hey, there's this thread {edit} which just got better while I was writing this drivel - hooplah! {/edit}). Any time I have to tell another twatty 14 year old to fuck off, I think 'damn, let's just burn them all'.
Later, I realise that probably wouldn't be especially ethically sound.
Where's a bloody good book on this phenomena when you need it, eh?
Gingerbread Man on 22/6/2005 at 19:44
Anything with "youth crime" and "moral panics" in the article title usually has a thing or two to say about increases in perception.
ffox on 22/6/2005 at 20:04
Quote Posted by Chimpy Chompy
This is where input from any Brits in the 30+ range would be useful. Is the yob problem genuinely worse than it used to be?
In my youth (nearly 50 years ago) the usual thing was pitched battles between large groups of youths. Mods versus Rockers, for example, or as in my own case, National Servicemen versus Teddy Boys. It was pretty vicious - bicycle chains, razors, Army boots and webbing belts (the buckles were nasty). If you weren't in one of the groups you were pretty safe.
20 years ago it was rival football supporters in large numbers.
Nowadays the groups are smaller and only pick fights they are sure they can win. They like outnumbered or feeble opponents.
So, in answer to your question, it's different. Innocent passers-by get hurt more frequently these days.
