Renzatic on 16/8/2017 at 03:31
And as expected, Trump's reversal of stances has served to embolden the alt-right. David Duke is once again singing his praises.
I think the biggest mistake a lot of other relatively more moderate people are making is trying to construct this into the usual liberal/conservative divide. It's not. This isn't the usual bickering about tax codes, business regulations, roles of government, and social issues that we constantly fret and argue about in Washington. This is something else entirely. Something well off the reservation.
Don't assume Antifa as the Liberal Left to the Nazi and Klan Conservative Right. The latter represents an ethos wholly removed from our usual political conversation. And the former? I think of them as something of an antigen.
Renzatic on 16/8/2017 at 04:16
Yeah, that's pretty much what I think as well. If he is racist, he's racist in that relatively harmless "wow, Jews sure are good with money, and the black man sure do loves his friend chicken" sorta way. He doesn't hate anybody, but he defines people by their stereotypes. We've seen plenty of evidence of this during his campaign.
The fact Trump publicly disavowed the Reform Party during the early 2000's when David Duke became associated with them is more proof of that. He's not racist, at least not in the same way the alt-right are.
But he is a populist, and ran his campaign riding on the fears that define the alt-right. What we've seen over the last three days came about because Donald Trump doesn't like being told what to say or do, and the fact he knows which side his bread is buttered on. Basically, he's stupid, and he's played with fire to our detriment, just so he could be president.
Starker on 16/8/2017 at 05:26
Well, he might be inwardly racist in a relatively harmless manner, but he sure doesn't seem to mind the support of people who are outwardly racist in a definitely harmful manner. Correlation?
demagogue on 16/8/2017 at 05:35
I haven't had anything really to post because marching neo-Nazis are literally indefensible and there's not much really to comment on for the situation or other side.
The history angle is such a red herring to what's really going on that it's almost laughable to think there's a "discussion" about it going on here. (I'm somewhere between putting relics in a museum or just quietly removing legit egregious icons, depending on each case individually. But I don't have a strong opinion and am willing to hear out people that have though it through.)
And the Antifa crowd, I mean, there's a pool of people left and right that have been itching for a fight this whole time, so of course they were going to jump in. And undoubtedly the alt-right crowd was hoping they would and organized this moron march exactly to invite just that. They all got the drunken brawl that they wanted on that front, which should have been all it amounted too until some dickhead drove his car into people and turned this numbnut fiasco into an actual tragedy.
What's bewildering is that this should become a national crisis. In the grand scheme of things, it's really not that many people and the kind of thing that makes local news. And Trump couldn't have had an easier task. Just say something about neo-Nazis not representing our values, blah, blah... And everyone feels reaffirmed about the moral highground and specialness of being American, and life goes on. But Trump being Trump he's still going to ruin it, and make sure he clarifies himself in the most divisive way possible. He has a savviness to his idiocity which plays into Bannon-style accellerationism. He knows his tone is going to drive Dems up the wall. And he always manages to leave an out to Reps ... because of the way he phrased his point, it's so easy for Reps to say they refuse to say Antifas aren't bad too, as if that's what the issue comes down to when it's not.
In normal times, this would feel like a major turning point. But in this context ... next week it's going to be something else and this whole uproar will already be competing for outrage.
Renzatic on 16/8/2017 at 05:57
Quote Posted by Starker
Well, he might be inwardly racist in a relatively harmless manner, but he sure doesn't seem to mind the support of people who are outwardly racist in a definitely harmful manner. Correlation?
Whether he's racist or not is really beside the point. They're an easily manipulated bunch, and they vote. If this tells us anything about Trump, it's that he lacks and standards or a sense of decency. The end result is all that matters to him.
heywood on 16/8/2017 at 10:23
demagogue, I think you're underestimating this problem. We've got people coming out of the woodwork all over now to get on the bandwagon. We could be in for a period of nationwide racial and political violence on the order of the late 60s/early 70s.
Renz, Trump bailed on the Reform party when it was clear he wasn't going to get the nomination. He may not have a long history of racism, but the way he has acted over the last two years is hard to ignore. I tried to rationalize it for a while, but I'm willing to admit now that his critics were right about him all along.
demagogue on 16/8/2017 at 12:10
The last actual mass demonstration with pillaging and plundering by the racist Right was IIRC the Tulsa riots, 1921. Well I don't know, there could have been some KKK rallies with violence pre-WWII too. The '60s and '70s were anti-Vietnam and black civil rights protests by the Left, and the Left has been mass demonstrating in the 10s of thousands it seems like every other week since Trump took office. If they were going to burn cars and have violence they would have done it already. (Edit: If one of these neo-Nazi types does something truly grotesque like hang a black guy from a tree then I could see mass race rioting in the cities that could get ugly though.)
The neo-Nazi right I'd still argue is a very small contingent. The Trump-supporting Right is a much larger group, still screwball and enraged with race mixed up in there, but they're not the ones that will be protesting or violent... They're the ones always posting photos of BLM or hippie-looking types demonstrating and saying, see they're out in the streets burning cars instead of being good citizens again. And I remember the Tea Party protests in the Obama years. They could push around a Leftist that got stuck in the middle, but it was a lot of geriatric and chub cases ... granted people so full of disgust, contempt, and hate that their faces screwed into a twist. But looting and violence, I think they'd get winded and need to take a seat even thinking about it. I don't see it.
I'm not betting on anything and open to being proven wrong. I see a lot of energy being let loose, and it's coming out online and in day to day incidents, but I don't see that yet. Actually, TBH, I haven't seen a single Right friend say a word about Charlotteville yet, or even Trump in it feels like weeks now. They're posting about their vacations, kids, parties, days at the beach, anything but Trump. The desperation to not notice what's going on is almost palpable.
What I could imagine is if there's an impeachment process after a Dem sweep in 2018 that tries to oust Trump and it gives the perception of "undemocratic" political retribution, then I could see this group getting worked up enough to take to the streets and really mean "take back our country". But I think even a Dem sweep isn't going to give them 2/3 of the Senate, and just a House vote by itself, I mean even Clinton had that much. So I don't see that happening either. But, yeah, I wouldn't be surprised by anything anymore. While I don't see it, anything's possible at this point.
Krush on 16/8/2017 at 14:40
If antifa confined themselves to beating up the idiots who were actually waving nazi flags or wearing nazi uniforms (where do they even find these things?), then I wouldn't have too much of a problem with antifa.
However, antifa attacked everyone at the rally with clubs, even those who just wanted to legally (they had a permit and everything) protest the taking down of historical monuments. So, antifa is a terror group at this point.
Nicker on 16/8/2017 at 16:02
Quote Posted by Krush
(they had a permit and everything)
Oh. Well I guess goose stepping, torchlight parades are OK then!
Chimpy Chompy on 16/8/2017 at 16:08
but but but antifaa
the problem right now is the emboldening of the far-right, not the protests in response to it. Nazis scare me more than dumb anarchist kids.
