icemann on 19/8/2017 at 17:24
I wasn't saying to build new statues. More in keeping the existing ones, as they are a part of a history.
We may not like what has happened in the past by leaders, BUT it is part of history. And remembering those parts/facts and not wiping them from history is important for future generations.
As someone posted earlier, they were built during a different era. Sure we all may be living in a more "enlightened" time now, but does that give us the right to remove all mention of it? I think not.
It's like over here in Australia. We have Australia day on the 26th of January, which signifies the date that we were declared a nation. There is a minority of people that call this "invasion day", and want it changed due to the injustices committed against the Aboriginal people. Sure there was numerous evils committed, but the date is the date. Changing the day of celebration wont change what date it was originally declared, so it's silly to change it imo.
Starker on 19/8/2017 at 18:12
How does putting a statue in a museum remove all mention of it? People still learn about it in school. The issue is not about whether to remember or forget what happened, the issue is about glorifying the leaders of a failed rebellion by displaying their statues in public spaces. It's not about the victims of the war, it's more about how gloriously the South fought. And that's why certain groups keep rallying around them. They want it to happen again. They want to repeat the history.
Pyrian on 19/8/2017 at 21:22
A public, prominent statue isn't historical (except for facial features - and that only when they're well done), it's a commemorative memorial. In these cases, it's a celebration of racial subjugation and oppression, and the fight for that. The civil war is long over, but the struggle over racial subjugation and oppression continues on a daily basis in this country. It ebbs and flows, but it never ceased and it never even paused. These statues were created by supporters of racial subjugation (klansmen) to commemorate warriors for racial subjugation (confederate soldiers) and now defended by protestors supporting racial subjugation (alt-right) - and there's a mountain of primary-source evidence that that's exactly what they were doing, even in those cases where "white supremacy" isn't literally carved in stone on the statue's base.
History belongs in books and museums.
Renzatic on 19/8/2017 at 23:09
Quote Posted by Goldmoon Dawn
Um, no... but I sure have taken a *lot* of abuse!
That has at least as much to do with your presentation as it does your arguments.
You have a tendency to come up with some of the densest crap imaginable, almost always fail to explain your point in a coherent manner, then talk down to anyone who argues with you as being too blinkered and/or indoctrinated to understand the brilliance of your arguments.
Contrast yourself with Icemann, who is arguing against the usual grain of the threat, but is being treated with considerably more respect than what you receive. The reason for this is because Ice is smart, and explains his positions well. Even Krush gets the occasional nods of respect, when he breaks out of his usual "THE IMMIGRANTS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERYTHING BAD WITH THIS COUNTRY!" spiel.
You do it to yourself, Gold. It's not what you say, it's that you're an obnoxious twit while saying it.
Goldmoon Dawn on 20/8/2017 at 01:48
Quote Posted by Renzatic
then talk down to anyone who argues with you as being too blinkered and/or indoctrinated to understand the brilliance of your arguments.
You always manage to fabricate and then throw in that little gem. Um, no... some people just start attacking me because:
Quote Posted by Renzatic
You have a tendency to come up with some of the densest crap imaginable
I dont really have any argument Im battling anyone with, Im just stating my opinion/sharing first hand experiences. As an aware independent, sometimes my point of view makes you partisan haxx jelly, I get that, so by all means flame away!
Quote Posted by Renzatic
You do it to yourself, Gold. It's not what you say, it's that you're an obnoxious twit while saying it.
Yes I know, and Im not worried about it, although I *am* sorry for being rude to Sulphur before.
icemann on 20/8/2017 at 04:11
I'd like to add that on further thought - If the statue were to go a museum, then that's fine. It's not being hidden from sight, so not being wiped from history. There is only so much room in museums though, so where would you send them when there isn't enough room?
I guess we all see different things from statues like this. I see them as historical monuments for key points in our history both good and bad. Sometimes there to rally behind, whilst other times to showcase the worst of what we are capable of, and to have it a timely reminder where bad/evil acts can take you (as a leader).
Thor on 20/8/2017 at 13:15
Quote Posted by Starker
[video=youtube;RFO6ZhUW38w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFO6ZhUW38w[/video]
Besides, I don't consider listening to bigoted comments about how white supremacy is awesome and how gay people are icky as expanding one's mind. Rather the opposite, in fact.
This doesn't go into any specifics of the argument as I like to be very abstract at times
Listening to it? Maybe, maybe not. Understanding why they think the way they think? Yes. Because then you make yourself to consider what the other person has to say. For some topics (like these) it's hard to seperate emotion from the ability to think, but if you do it, then you can start to look more at facts and reality. The main reason because it's hard is because if this reality starts to look contradicting with what is being propogated around and believed by yourself and your environment, you risk alienation. It's one thing to swallow your pride and admit to yourself about being wrong. It's another thing to feel (or even become) alienated to some degree from the people around you. I myself have largely cut influences out of my life (as much as I can) and am an outsider observing everything from afar, so that is why I am the way I am. But I could be wrong, of course.
Starker on 20/8/2017 at 13:51
Oh, I have no problem understanding bigotry and where it comes from. I have talked to actual neo-nazis in real life and argued with them. And I mean real neo-nazis, not edgy "Hitler did nothing wrong" 4channers. But this doesn't mean I have to pay attention to the crazy ranting of someone standing on a street corner.
Tocky on 21/8/2017 at 00:44
Also on battlefields and Confederate cemeteries. They are oddly lacking there. There are plenty of memorials to Union troops and Generals at places like Shiloh or Lookout Mt. but the one place you would think you would see some stab at parity they do not exist. I find that odd. Those places are visited by folks who have read about the battles most. I don't even think removal to those places would upset most reasonable folks. There they would be in a historical setting and not in places where there is no context for them to be. Nearly all the fighting done was here in the south. There are way more battlefields than statues so there would be plenty of room. The battle of Brices Crossroads has not one statue of General Forrest yet it was such a brilliant work defeating a far superior number of Union troops that it is still taught at West Point when weather and terrain is the subject.
