Slasher on 18/8/2017 at 08:46
Democracy isn't perfect. Striking a balance between protecting the minority without impairing the majority is something democratic societies may grapple with until the sun goes nova. But, like the man said, "democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others."
Trance on 18/8/2017 at 11:32
And of course, how many of those people surveyed were influenced by the events in Charlottesville to answer the way they did? A lot of them probably thought, "If we bring more confederate statues down, we'll get more violent clashes and more Nazis marching in the street. Better leave 'em up, just to avoid that headache."
Starker on 18/8/2017 at 12:09
Actually, it's about ethics in sculpture maintenance.
henke on 18/8/2017 at 12:58
Quote Posted by Trance
And of course, how many of those people surveyed were influenced by the events in Charlottesville to answer the way they did? A lot of them probably thought, "If we bring more confederate statues down, we'll get more violent clashes and more Nazis marching in the street. Better leave 'em up, just to avoid that headache."
I'm sure the events in Charlottesville influenced people's opinions about it, but I'd wager it was more in the direction of "bring them down".
Of course, as an outsider I don't wanna speculate too much about how Americans feel about these things. But I gotta ask, was this an issue on most people's minds before Charlottesville? It feels like over the past week a lot of poeple have gone from not having strong feelings about confederate statues to being like "neo nazis want them to stay up? fuck that, let's start toppling this shit!"
demagogue on 18/8/2017 at 13:27
They've been an issue forever. In the 90s you started to see civil rights statues going up as a kind of counterpoint, and I think some of the first (public) ones started getting moved into museums, which picked up steam in the 2000s. (The confederate flag issue too.) But they've rarely been in the spotlight as much as now, and as such a key symbol, which is just the combination of all the factors involved, white power rally, Trump's statements, the Millennials and hashtag activism.
BTW, my first reaction is to notice, what a lot in the US aren't appreciating, that almost every country that's ever had a war where the former combatants and their descendants still have to live with each other, ie, practically every country ever, has this same issue of dealing with memory and memorialization, statues and memorials. There's a whole field now devoted to it we call Transitional Justice. People that care about it would do well to read that literature and see how other countries have dealt with the same types of issues, and what are all the considerations involved according to specialists that have thought a lot about it professionally.
Pyrian on 18/8/2017 at 14:25
Quote Posted by Renzatic
What I don't understand is how it erases history in any way...
Oh, it doesn't, but any port in a storm. Liberals are doing it, therefore it must be opposed, preferably with liberal-sounding rationalizations.
Vivian on 18/8/2017 at 14:33
Would an acceptable solution be to keep the statues and just graft an erect brass penis onto the forehead of each one?
heywood on 18/8/2017 at 17:02
This is a present day cultural conflict. Historical statues and monuments shouldn't even be involved in this.
I don't think that transitional justice applies as an excuse now because the civil war was 150 years ago and everyone alive today is several generations removed from anyone who personally experienced it. The Reconstruction was a period of transitional justice. If we're going to say that monuments, memorials, and historical art are fair game for destruction since we're still in a period of post-Civil war transitional justice, then pretty much every society on Earth is in a perpetual transitional justice period and everything is fair game.
When I saw the mob in North Carolina tearing down the statue of a Confederate soldier, I immediately thought of three other examples in recent history: the toppling of Saddam Hussein's statue in Baghdad 2003, the destruction of Lenin statues in Ukraine starting in the 1990s, and demolition of the Buddhas of Bamiyan by the Taliban in 2001. The first was a war-time act and the statue was of a ruthless dictator that was still alive, so I have no qualms about that one. The second occurred in a post-independence transition period, and although I personally didn't want to see them destroyed, I think it's somewhat understandable considering Ukrainians had literally just thrown off communism and emerged from under the thumb of the USSR. Finally, the destruction of the Buddhas was just senseless destruction of historical art because it wasn't politically correct in modernity. By invoking the term "politically correct" here I'm referring to the fact that modern Afghans don't tolerate non-Islamic religions even though the region of Afghanistan was once multi-religious. The Buddhas seemed like the closest analogy to what I saw in North Carolina.
I'm a history buff and it makes me angry when history gets hijacked by a political or cultural movement far removed from it. Or when history gets re-interpreted in a one-sided way to justify some modern day cause. Or when supposed "historians" falsify history to fit a politically correct narrative. All of that is happening now. In my opinion, the benefit of having these public symbols such as statues, memorials, etc. is so that people don't forget their history, and sometimes they inspire people to learn it. My impression is that most of the people who advocate purging the country of public symbols of the Confederacy don't know jack shit about it, and don't WANT to know jack shit about it, which is sad.
Nicker on 18/8/2017 at 17:11
Vae. You are creating a false equivalence between monuments to national heroes and celebrations of traitors.
