Tocky on 20/10/2025 at 21:41

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True. One should forgive Trump for admitting he and Epstein have "wonderful secrets" together- but not before kicking him out of office.

Kolya on 21/10/2025 at 01:10

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I'm sure there is, but I wasn't talking about US politics exclusively. Left ideas that developed into identity politics and post-colonialism are shared between Europe and the US. The local effects are different, which is why it would be hard for me to argue with Tocky about whether young white men in the US fear a "darkie take-over". I could tell you about the "great population replacement" theory far right wingers spin in Germany (mostly about north african muslims) and there may be some similarities, but all the other factors are very different (geographical, economical, religious, political). Which is why I feel more comfortable talking about the ideas side.

Tocky, when I said the Left nurtures this behaviour I meant that the Left in its attempt to help minorities has helped create a society where defining yourself as a victim carries huge advantages. It's not the Left's fault alone, there is a social mechanism behind it: By shedding religion we also lost the ability to absolve and forgive ourselves, which has turned western societies into guilt ridden societies to the point of pathology. We're guilty for our colonial past, guilty for our privileged position in the world, guilty with every consumer product we buy of poisoning and destroying nature and subjugating people elsewhere. We're guilty for living at all and we shouldn't have children. There is an excellent essay by Wilfred M. McClay diving into this. It's a long read but well worth it: (https://hedgehogreview.com/issues/the-post-modern-self/articles/the-strange-persistence-of-guilt)

For a lot of people in the western world this inescapable guilt is unbearable. They will try and absolve themselves any way they can, by buying biological food (from an industry that has long discovered how to use this guilt for its gain), by voting left, by riding a bike to work, by supporting minority causes. All good and well, but it's never enough. You're still white and privileged and guilty. But there is one way out of this painful guilt: If you can define yourself as member of some suppressed minority group, you're free and can spend your energy on hating the suppressors in brotherhood with others like yourself, instead of hating yourself. Of course we're all suppressed by capitalism, so theoretically you could join a union at this point as people did in the past. But that doesn't absolve you personally of anything. You need a real minority but you're not actually part of one. Bummer. But suppressed minorities come in so many shapes and forms. Surely there must some aspect of yourself that is suppressed. You'll figure it out.

A society that is driven by guilt, and consequently by victim groups who can shove all this guilt onto others to free themselves, still has hierarchies though: the victimhood pyramid, which works by the rules of modern attention economy. Those who scream loudest about their suppression get the most support. Traditional minority groups like women and gays are not at the top, despite their overwhelming numbers. Think about which minority group in recent years came from infinitesimally small numbers and suddenly swelled to the loudest movement, even successfully disputing and denigrating the largest suppressed group. Think about how easy it is to get in for young white westerners.

While it should go without saying: there are and always have been actual suppressed minorities and some have benefitted from this new social victim focus. And the Left isn't solely responsible for its misuse. The social mechanisms at play are of historical philosophical proportions and much larger than the Left. But the Left has failed to recognize any of it and instead helped this development along a good deal. Mainly though it has failed to provide a perspective, a way out of this, an escape from all this guilt that is not defining yourself as a victim. And this is part of the Left's DNA. It's always been the Left's venerable goal to be an advocate for the suppressed. This also means that the Left benefits from suppression in a way. It has learned to look for the suppressed and spread its protective government financed wings over them. If the victimhood pyramid is a nest, then the Left is like a hen sitting on top of it. This is what I meant when I said the Left nurtures this behaviour.

A process of transitional justice might be such a way out, if it tackled all these fields of guilt. But that would be a monumental task for the US alone, while all of western societies would need it. And I don't see the Right or the Left giving up their positions to try that. It seems more likely that an idea will come along, a new way of looking at things. The religious revival in the US Right is a symptom of that need, but not its solution.

lowenz on 21/10/2025 at 09:57

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You aren't missing nothing of value if what you don't have can't make you in peace with yourself.
So no need of genuine compliments (nor captatio benevolentiae :p ). Better men can be bitter men.

heywood on 21/10/2025 at 17:21

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I was ninja'd too. My post was to Kolya and lowenz (now on the previous page), not meant for you. Sorry for the confusion, I will add quotes.

I think Kolya is repeating a culture war talking point that doesn't ring true. On the whole:
a. White men have done better under western liberalism than any other demographic group
b. White men have done better under western liberalism than white men in other socioeconomic systems

In fact, white men have done so well in the US that we are now effectively ruled by white male oligarchs who are using the culture war against us.

The only thing that rings true for me in Kolya's argument is that the left engages in discrimination too.

Nicker on 26/10/2025 at 21:21

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Exactly when did religion get the boot? There are churches everywhere. Televangelists and mega-churches are raking in the tax-free dosh like never before. That's the pathology, that's the sickness.

And since when do real humans need a child-killing, desert war-god to show us how to be better people and to process our guilt? Modern humans, including our immediate ancestors (and even our extant cousins), were moral creatures for millions of years before some mythical patriarch showed up with The Ten Commandments v2.0 (because the Chosen People didn't like the first version so they got a do-over).

We process guilt by honestly owning our mistakes, making amends and resolving to do better in future, not through human blood sacrifice to some omnipotent narcissist.



The unblinking irony and hypocrisy of this assertion is staggering. What about your own attention economy, and it's currency of inherited guilt? What about your dogma of eternal damnation being shoved down civilization's throat, for the unforgivable sin of being human? What about your own Divine Hierarchy, approving slavery, rape, human blood sacrifice, as the only option for salvation? Not good works. Not human decency. Human blood.

And all to achieve what? A forever party for a few timorous egos?

How dare you look down your nose at actual victims hoping for some semblance of justice. You should be looking in the mirror and asking, what the fuck is wrong with me?