Pyrian on 31/10/2017 at 21:13
Quote Posted by raph
Shit, I cited from memory, did I get my countries mixed up? I'm sorry.:erg:
Not really. South Sudan is a nightmare, the U.N. calls it "one of the most horrendous human rights situations in the world." I would say your characterization is much better than N'Al trying to hold it up as a positive example!
N'Al on 31/10/2017 at 21:45
Apart from the fact that I merely talked about the referendum and its legitimacy, and not the general state of the country now.
N'Al on 31/10/2017 at 21:49
Quote Posted by heywood
there is a process for amendment. That would seem to provide a legal framework for secession or perhaps some other form of autonomy.
Sounds like a proper way of doing things, no?
heywood on 1/11/2017 at 16:56
It could be, if it were an option. But as far as I understand, the ruling party in the Spanish parliament are centralists who are opposed to giving Catalunya more autonomy, let alone independence, and they are supported by the Constitutional Court. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. Back when the Socialists were running the government, a legal referendum held was on an updated Catalan Statute, which was approved by the Spanish parliament, but portions of it were struck down by the court, and that action was largely responsible for the pro-independence parties coming to power in Catalunya in the first place. And now the Spanish parliament is run by the party who opposed the updated statute and brought it to court. Since I don't live there I don't fully understand what's going on, but the impression I've gotten from English speaking news sources is that most of Spain is in favor of more centralization and would like Catalans to just suck it up and quit bitching. So any approach that you would consider "proper" is effectively a dead end.
You cited Scotland as a proper way to do it. Scotland held a referendum, which was endorsed by the UK government. Catalunya's referendum was declared illegal by the Spanish government and they sent in riot police to try to stop it. When it went ahead anyway, you called it illegitimate and undemocratic. So if holding a popular referendum is the proper way to go about seeking independence, why are you opposed to holding one?
I wonder if Catalans consider this snap election as another referendum on independence. If so, it hardly seems free and fair since the central government has already shown they will use Article 155 to suspend Catalunya's autonomy, sack and prosecute lawmakers, and send in the national guard if it moves toward independence again. So if I were Catalan, I would feel like I'm going to the polls with a gun to my head.
Setting aside Catalan independence for a moment... One thing I don't understand, which is my reason for creating this thread, is why Western countries whose political systems are based on liberalism are reflexively opposed to any independence movement within their borders, while often supporting independence movements elsewhere (e.g. South Sudan as you already mentioned, or Kosovo, or Ache). It seems like a lot of hypocrisy to me.
Pyrian on 1/11/2017 at 18:17
I don't really have a political philosophy of what a nation should be. I find it very difficulty to evaluate whether I think a region should or shouldn't be more or less autonomous. And there's lots of degrees of autonomy, and lots of motivations for and against it.
The U.S. civil war was fought primarily for the spectacularly ugly reason of safeguarding the institution of slavery. So, um, ick. In every other respect I wish they'd left.
Here in San Diego there's a small but very wealthy region called La Jolla that periodically seeks to form a separate City completely within the borders of San Diego. Why? Because they want their relatively higher property taxes to benefit them more and the rest of San Diego less. Yay? There seems to be a lot of similar talk about Catalonia. I'm pretty suspicious of that movement.
But, of course, sending in paramilitaries to arrest political opponents for sedition and seize ballot boxes is just in a whole different world of nasty than "we want more of our tax dollars".
rachel on 1/11/2017 at 22:25
People are getting arrested for going against judicial orders and breaking the law, not for their ideas. How hard is this to understand? You're totally free to not like Madrid and want Catalonia to be an independent state, but that doesn't mean you can just decide to secede because you want to. That's never going to happen, and you'd be deluded or delusional to think otherwise.
Mélenchon in France is free to criticize Macron all he wants but were he to try and secede Marseille from France, the same would happen; Hillary in the US can say whatever she wants of Trump, but if were she to take Delaware and declares it the Independent Republic of Hillaryland, the same would happen; etc. Spain is not a black swan with weird totalitarian tendencies, despite the fact that recent history and the behaviour of the ruling PP do cast a bad shadow on this year's events.
Right now, a legal referendum can happen, but it would require all of Spain to participate, meaning presumably that it would "fail", since most of the country favors the union. So in order to have the referendum that some Catalans want, constitutional reform is needed. That's the only legal way to get a Scotland-style referendum involving only Catalonia. To get this constitutional reform, you have to find and elect, or have elected, people who agree with you and will further this agenda. It's grassroots, it's a lot of work, it's also admitedly a bit more complicated than that, and it takes a godawful lot of time, but give or take that's the rules everyone agrees to play with in all "modern" democracies, and Spain is no different.
Throwing the pieces and breaking the board gets you nowhere and will just piss off the central government.
Crying over spilled milk from Belgium just makes Puigdemont look pathetic and show how little legitimacy he had in the first place. No one is going to slam that clown in a black van to take him to Government Torture Centers™ or whatever. Plus, calling for folks to oppose the police and the government when he hides away abroad is despicable. You want resistance, come and resist with "your" people, motherfucker.
heywood on 1/11/2017 at 22:53
Quote Posted by Pyrian
I don't really have a political philosophy of what a nation
should be. I find it very difficulty to evaluate whether I think a region should or shouldn't be more or less autonomous. And there's lots of degrees of autonomy, and lots of motivations for and against it.
The U.S. civil war was fought primarily for the spectacularly ugly reason of safeguarding the institution of slavery. So, um, ick. In every
other respect I wish they'd left.
Here in San Diego there's a small but very wealthy region called La Jolla that periodically seeks to form a separate City completely within the borders of San Diego. Why? Because they want their relatively higher property taxes to benefit them more and the rest of San Diego less. Yay? There seems to be a lot of similar talk about Catalonia. I'm pretty suspicious of that movement.
But, of course, sending in paramilitaries to arrest political opponents for sedition and seize ballot boxes is just in a whole different world of nasty than "we want more of our tax dollars".
Yeah, often times these independence movements have more to do with economic grievances than culture or oppression.
I live in a town of 35,000 and we went through a small time crisis of our own. Part of the town, where the first settled village lies, had its own post code and fire district, which resulted in it having a lower tax rate. A secession movement sprung up in that village resulting from the town council's attempts to shrink its fire precinct, the purpose of which was to take away some of its tax base. It was an ugly battle with very heated opinions and the state superior court was dragged into it multiple times. The movement died out after the town put forth a ballot question of whether to combine the two fire precincts into one, and something like 80% voted yes. A few years later the town council closed the village's main fire station to save money, resulting in a wave of protests and talk of secession again, and a second ballot question, where about 85% voted to keep it open. Now everyone's content, but if it hadn't been for the direct votes we'd still be fighting over it.
My opinion on nations is that they are fluid. Politics changes, culture and religion evolves, people migrate, economies rise and fall, so does nationalism, etc. I think it's unrealistic to expect that borders and governments aren't going to change as a result. In order to honor the principle of self-government, they have to be able to change.
bassoferrol on 2/11/2017 at 01:01
Raph, you explain things very well and very concise and subject to the law.
Do you live in Spain by any chance?
I´d like to see the same problem in USA for example if Delaware, or California, or Florida, or Alaska... or all of them decide to leave the country named of USA unilaterally because democracy is first and I dont give a damn about breaking the law even if I was elected because of it.
rachel on 2/11/2017 at 06:21
Yup, in Barcelona :)
scumble on 2/11/2017 at 09:11
Quote Posted by Pyrian
The U.S. civil war was fought primarily for the spectacularly ugly reason of safeguarding the institution of slavery. So, um, ick. In every
other respect I wish they'd left.
I believe this is a bit of a misconception. Slavery is always kept centre, but I've picked up hints from revisionists that there was an element of Lincoln being obsessed with "saving the union". I'm hardly an expert but some alternative information has made me think there is more to it. Allegedly journalists were getting chucked in prison at the time for writing the wrong things. Knowing what human history is like it's almost certainly not a pure crusade against slavery, yet that seems to be the popular reduction.
If I had time I'd spend some more time looking into it. It's been a while since I could be bothered with history as it's often quite depressing although fascinating.
