N'Al on 30/10/2017 at 10:21
Exactly.
Rajoy kinda shot himself in the foot there.
Tony_Tarantula on 30/10/2017 at 13:33
Quote Posted by N'Al
Not so in Catalonia, though. What Puigdemont did is like the governor of New Mexico declaring independence from the United States cause he asked a few of his friends and they thought it was a good idea. Well, whaddya know, (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secession_in_the_United_States) unilateral secession is unconstitutional in the US as well, Spain is hardly unique in that regard.
To answer those points:
1) It being "unconstitutional" in the US was settled by a single, highly questionable, politically influenced court case that's roughly as good a decision as Citizens United or Korematsu v. US were. That belief (in general, not anything you've said specifically) also doesn't reflect that the original framework that the US government is based on was heavily influenced by John Locke's concept that the authority of a government is dependent on "the consent of the governed"; if that consent goes so does the government's legitimacy.
In this instance they actually did have an open referendum so I'm not sure exactly why you believe that this is somehow not "democratic and legitimate". It was the Spanish government declaring the vote illegal that kept people away from the polls and not anything the Catalonians did.
Sidenote: this is an issue that demonstrates my own break with "right wingers". A lot of the type on their forums are apalled by the vote and fully support using police to crack down those scummy hippies.
Well...that's great, but you don't have the right to beat the shit out of people just because they're lefties, and if they want to have a "feminist state", then more power to you. Just don't come crying to us when it works out the same way every other marxist state ever has worked out.
Armstrong's got some commentary:(
https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-news/spain/catalonia-catalunya-legal-or-not-legal/)
Quote:
This idea that Catalonia somehow belongs to Madrid in perpetuity is rather strange. Spain itself did not exist as a country until the marriage of Ferdinand & Isabella during the 15th century. There are coins issued in Barcelona which predate Spain. Back in the 11th century, the Iberian peninsula was divided into three kingdoms; (1) Caliphate of Córdoba in Taifa, (2) The kingdoms of Leon, (3) and The Kingdom of Pamplona and the County of Barcelona. Historically, Barcelona was not conquered by the Arabs who dominated most of Spain during the 11th century. From that period onward, Barcelona has always harbored a sense of independence from the rest of the Iberian peninsula.
So why such intensity against Catalonia? On October 27th, 2017, the Catalan parliament declared independence, in a 70-10 vote. That seems to be a clear majority vote. Granted, this came after an independence referendum on October 1st, 2017, in which just under 90% of Catalan voters backed independence, however, turnout was only 43%. That was, in part, because Madrid sent in troops to try to prevent the vote. Now Madrid has called for a new vote after dismissing the Parliament and thus appears to be setting the stage for a rigged election no different than Russia taking Crimea. The West sanctions Russia for such tactics but not Madrid?
The Supreme Court decision is used by Madrid to claim there is no right for Catalonia to separate. That is clearly a violation of human rights and it is the very same argument the King of Britain made against America so I suppose the United States is a totally illegal entity as well. Someone should serve notice to Trump to hand power back to London and surrender.
SD on 30/10/2017 at 14:00
Tony evidently doesn't know that in 1978, an overwhelming majority of people in Spain (92% on a two-thirds turnout) voted to enact a constitution that specifically disallows secession, citing "the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards". Support was higher than average in Catalonia: 95% voted in favour of this constitution.
The Catalan people have had their democratic say already, and they voted 19 to 1 to surrender, in perpetuity, their right to secede. And that, really, is that.
Nicker on 31/10/2017 at 01:35
Regardless of the 1978 referendum, the Spanish government does not need the strong arm tactics at this time. It only helps the Catalan faction.
Put away the sticks and break out some carrots.
Tony_Tarantula on 31/10/2017 at 18:03
Quote Posted by SD
Tony evidently doesn't know that in 1978, an overwhelming majority of people in Spain (92% on a two-thirds turnout) voted to enact a constitution that specifically disallows secession, citing "the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards". Support was higher than average in Catalonia: 95% voted in favour of this constitution.
The Catalan people have had their democratic say already, and they voted 19 to 1 to surrender, in perpetuity, their right to secede. And that, really, is that.
Which brings us back to square 1 that there simply is no "right way" to do it. The only possible solution I can think of is that you'd need to pass a nationwide referndum to repeal the previous one, which is unlikely to actually occur with any level of integrity since a government willing to resort to fascist tactics to shut down the Catalonian vote can be reasonably assumed to be willing to either react the same way or rig the kind of vote I describe.
rachel on 31/10/2017 at 19:43
Tony, I don't know what your sources are but if you think you're giving a fair and informed point of view, you're failing pretty bad.
Quote Posted by Tony_Tarantula
So why such intensity against Catalonia? On October 27th, 2017, the Catalan parliament declared independence, in a 70-10 vote. That seems to be a clear majority vote. Granted, this came after an independence referendum on October 1st, 2017, in which just under 90% of Catalan voters backed independence, however, turnout was only 43%. That was, in part, because Madrid sent in troops to try to prevent the vote. Now Madrid has called for a new vote after dismissing the Parliament and thus appears to be setting the stage for a rigged election no different than Russia taking Crimea. The West sanctions Russia for such tactics but not Madrid?
1. The Catalan Parliament session that declared independence didn't even reach the quorum required to amend the Estatut. The whole thing is a farce and they knew they had no legitimacy, otherwise why the cloak and daggers?
2. The "laws" that were supposed to set the referendum in place were passed in a couple of hours without time for the opposition to comment or amend anything. Democracy in action!
3. Talking about opposition, the "No" camp was suppressed, bullied and virtually invisible for the whole weeks leading up to the poll. Yay for fair polls!
4. The referendum itself had no semblance of legitimacy: no controls, no ballot checks, multiple votes allowed. In one voting center, 321% of the registered voters were able to vote... what?
5. This "90% of Catalan voters" figure is bullshit. A 43% turnout with 90% of "yes" (because most "no" voters obey the law and just don't go), that's about 37-38%. Even less considering the multiple frauds above.
Madrid sent in cops, not "the troops". The Guardia Civil might be paramilitary, but it sound like they sent in the army with tanks, which is ridiculous. The police response was disproportionate, nobody denies that, but having seen the protests in 2012 and before (and brutality from the Mossos no less), that was pretty much par for the course. Again,
NOT OK, but sadly far from exceptional.
The implementation of Article 155 so far restores order and puts fair elections on the table, with both sides having their say, and it's now the best chance at making things look and feel normal again. This independentist fiasco has done enormous damage to the entire social fabric of the region and it will be a long time before that happens though, but it's a step in the right direction.
I hate that Rajoy gets to be the good guy in this scenario, I despise him and he was the worst person to be in charge in times like this, but I have to admit (as of Oct 31st) that he seems to be going with much more restraint than everyone expected, using 155 as a surgical tool rather than the nuclear option everyone feared...
At least we can breathe a bit now. The tension this past month was fucking unbearable.
rachel on 31/10/2017 at 19:47
TL;DR, you want to see real repression, go to South Sudan or Kurdistan. Spanish is a modern democracy and its people are free to express their opinions everywhere and they are not being arrested for it. Sometimes some peeps get arrested, but because they break the law. Like everywhere else.
Pyrian on 31/10/2017 at 20:16
Quote Posted by N'Al
...South Sudan...the referenda themselves were
democratic and legitimateQuote Posted by raph
...you want to see real repression, go to South Sudan...
I'm amused to see South Sudan cited both as democratic and legitimate and real repression. ;) And these two are arguing the same side!
Quote Posted by raph
Spanish is a modern democracy and its people are free to express their opinions everywhere and they are not being arrested for it. Sometimes some peeps get arrested, but
because they break the law.
In this case, "sedition", literally the law against expressing their opinions. Blocked websites. Peaceful protestors being beaten.
Quote:
The implementation of Article 155 so far restores order and puts fair elections on the table...
"On the table" is all well and good, but at this point I don't see why anyone would trust the guys who sent in the paramilitary to seize ballot boxes and take political prisoners are going to run a free and fair election. Send in the international observers, at the very least.
rachel on 31/10/2017 at 20:25
Shit, I cited from memory, did I get my countries mixed up? I'm sorry.:erg:
heywood on 31/10/2017 at 21:07
Quote Posted by SD
Tony evidently doesn't know that in 1978, an overwhelming majority of people in Spain (92% on a two-thirds turnout) voted to enact a constitution that specifically disallows secession, citing "the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards". Support was higher than average in Catalonia: 95% voted in favour of this constitution.
The Catalan people have had their democratic say already, and they voted 19 to 1 to surrender, in perpetuity, their right to secede. And that, really, is that.
A more accurate way to put it is that a previous generation of Catalans had their democratic say. But if self determination is a basic human right, it's not something that a previous generation can give away for all who come after. I'm not very knowledgeable on the contents of the constitution, but a quick wiki read suggests there is a process for amendment. That would seem to provide a legal framework for secession or perhaps some other form of autonomy.
If you deny people a process for exercising their right of self determination, then they are subjects, not democratic citizens. This path leads to domestic terrorism, insurgency, revolution, or civil war.
