heywood on 27/10/2017 at 14:18
So the Catalan Parliament just made their intent to secede official. So what does Rajoy do next? Have they called his bluff, kicking off a chaotic period of ambiguity over who really rules Catalonia, or does this mean martial law?
If Catalonia does become independent, which seems unlikely, will that kick off a wave of others? Basque country, Corsica, Scotland, etc? I'm curious to know what people think of these European secessionist movements.
My first thoughts:
1. Self-determination is one of the most fundamental human rights. In peacetime, we should never let one nation rule over another nation by force.
2. The European Union provides a suitable framework under which nations can break free from their post-WWII state boundaries, become independent states, and gain greater autonomy, while remaining in the EU and Euro zone.
So my instinct is to say that if Catalonia or Scotland or some other nation wants to be independent, they should be independent. But that begs the question of whether Catalans actually want to be independent. The referendum seemed pretty clear, 92% yes with 43% turnout. But I've heard several interviews with pro-Spanish Catalans who quote polls saying only 40% want independence.
N'Al on 27/10/2017 at 14:28
Quote Posted by heywood
polls saying only 40% want independence.
That's what 92% of 43% is.
bassoferrol on 27/10/2017 at 14:53
First Texas, California, Cornwall why not, etc.
And why dont you give Australia back to who it really belongs then? Only aborigins should vote like Catalonians in Spain (who conquered Catalonia, you know any name?
In Spain there are 17 parliaments, 17 National Health Services, 17 education systems and Catalonia for example has more competences than any other state in Germany, like Baviera.
Yet I must admit that they have a good propaganda system as victims of some kind of tyranny. Nonsense. Goebbels is doing his work and Puigdemont wants to be a martyr, his only wish as father of a nation.
heywood on 27/10/2017 at 15:01
Quote Posted by N'Al
That's what 92% of 43% is.
Only if you assume every single person who didn't turn out to vote prefers to stay in Spain, which is impossible. I don't live there, so I don't know what the prevailing view is on the street, but I'm curious to know.
N'Al on 27/10/2017 at 15:11
Ok...
Here a slightly less Nazi-tinged bullshit response:
Puigdemont set up an unconstitutional, illegitimate election, and is now trying to use the results* to blackmail the national government. It's completely undemocratic.
Yes, self-determination is a fundamental human right, but a true secession movement enacted via an electoral process (as opposed to violent revolution) still requires due process. Puigdemont didn't do that.
By contrast, the Scots did. I haven't checked, but I bet you 10, 20 years ago they wouldn't have been allowed to hold a referendum. The Scots managed to enact enough political change to allow and then hold a referendum (the fact they then chose against independence is irrelevant at this point). Sure, it's a slow, tedious process and not guaranteed to work, but it's still the right way to go about it.
Having said all that, Rajoy sending in state police to act as thugs is some Franco-level bullshit that has no place in this either.
* Again, 92% * 43% = 40%
bassoferrol on 27/10/2017 at 15:20
Quote Posted by heywood
Only if you assume every single person who didn't turn out to vote prefers to stay in Spain, which is impossible. I don't live there, so I don't know what the prevailing view is on the street, but I'm curious to know.
People who prefer to stay in Spain didn´t vote because it was an illegal act and first of all it was a circus. Elections in Spain are regualted according to Constituition and it was one to take effect if only one voted and that vote was yes. Only one vote with yes would give way to independence.
People voting three, four times in different places without control. What do you call that?
Pyrian on 27/10/2017 at 15:22
If a non-binding opinion poll is forced to be "unconstitutional, illegitimate" and suppressed by "state police to act as thugs", then I think you have bigger problems than a failure to be utterly obsequious to the democratic standards.
Also, the implied notion that everyone who didn't vote is united in opposition to the measure is entertaining but laughable. (I've often thought that maybe in a Democracy everybody that can't be arsed to vote SHOULD be considered a "no". Obviously they don't care enough to want things to be different. Special moneyed interests routinely take advantage of general disinterest to enact their narrow but enthusiastic goals.)
bassoferrol on 27/10/2017 at 15:30
Catalonia has its own police and... have you seen them in action beating people?
How many of them are in hospital, how many died the other day in Catalonia?
If we sit peacefully in the middle of the road and railway cutting all traffic, would the police sing us a song and play the piano?
You know what sedicition is and is not a game. Put a granny and a little boy and you have a tear-jerker.
You always see some kind of brutality in Spain unlike USA for example where the police give out sweets to citizens.
N'Al on 27/10/2017 at 15:32
Puigdemont was originally going to use this "non-binding opinion poll" to actually declare independence.
bassoferrol on 27/10/2017 at 15:44
It is binding and of course illegal.
It is to take effect immediately.
Parliament in Catalonia represents that Spanish region (or they call lander in Germany). You can´t leave the country unilaterally as in other countries. Nothing new like the sun.
The vote for independence was just that; independence. It was not done as something experimental.
