june gloom on 9/7/2020 at 19:11
Quote Posted by SD
I think transwomen are transwomen.
that is
not an answer, and you know it
are trans women women, or are they men?
pick one, you dishonest bastard
SD on 9/7/2020 at 19:35
Quote Posted by Sulphur
And that's why I think there's a pretty fundamental misunderstanding of the issue here. You seem well up on how they see themselves - but let's go over it: if you've been born biologically male but know that that isn't who you are because it feels wrong, given enough time and self-discovery the only way to reconcile that is accepting that you are a woman. Now, not only have you had to deal with the fundamental disconnect around your own self-identity, but you have constantly had to deal with the rest of the planet invalidating the one conclusion that makes sense to you. So you fight for that, and for every inch you win, someone else takes a yard.
What does denying them entry to women's changing rooms have to do with this? It brings back the fact that introducing discrimination to protect 'women' safe spaces fundamentally contradicts the conclusion that a transwoman has had to fight for so far that they are
not different from women. It's yet another aggression, and it does in fact invalidate their identity at that level. You see it as a compromise, but it's still discriminatory on the basis of shoving aside the identities of trans people themselves.
I know you're not going to agree with this and respond with something involving GRS or putting the safety of women above transwomen, but the foundation of that argument means you don't really agree with trans identity to begin with.
*You have no idea how tempting it was to make a joke about how you've moved on from dicks and are now talking about orifices. But I'll spare everyone.
I'm quite sure I don't misunderstand anything, and I don't pretend there are any easy solutions. I accept gender dysphoria is a real thing. As I mentioned earlier, I consider myself to be slightly genderfluid, and goddammit, I look more convincing in a dress than most transwomen, even if I do say so myself.
In an ideal world you would let people believe themselves to be whatever they believe themselves to be, whether that be the opposite sex, a dolphin, a cabbage, a lamp-post, or whatever it is that makes them happy. I accept that denying transwomen who retain their male genitalia access to a very limited number of spaces may cause them anguish. Nevertheless, if we are to protect women (including fully-transitioned transwomen) from people who wish to use their penises to harm them, I see no alternative.
Because it cannot be denied that possession of a penis
does mark someone out as different from those who are born female. This is not to deny a person their trans identity, it is simply an issue of physiology, and the acknowledgement that a minority of penis owners are prepared to use their penis as a weapon. And that as soon as you allow people with penises to encroach on woman-only spaces, you are guaranteed to get people who abuse that, as we've seen from the numerous examples provided.
If I can introduce another analogy, and talk about a different kind of weapon - I accept that the overwhelming majority of gun owners pose no danger to anyone, but I still wouldn't allow people to carry guns in certain places. This is not to tar firearms owners as psychopaths who want to go on a killing spree, merely an acknowledgement that a tiny percentage of them are.
I appreciate that some people may think I'm talking out of one of my orifices. But never think that I haven't given the issue a lot of thought. This is my honest appraisal of a situation based on everything I've read and heard. I fully accept some will come to a different conclusion about the risks, and that's fine. What I will not tolerate is a denial that penises pose a threat to vulnerable women, because to do so is to deny the life experiences of millions of women.
SubJeff on 9/7/2020 at 19:35
Perhaps we're getting mixed up with the terms woman and female here?
Transwomen, unlike ciswomen, have a Y chromosome, so however we finally refer to them they are still transwomen. I don't have a problem referring to them as women I guess, but I think it dishonest to consider them exactly the same as ciswomen. And I don't think it helpful to use the term cis and trans every single time.
SD on 9/7/2020 at 19:37
Quote Posted by june gloom
that is
not an answer, and you know it
are trans women women, or are they men?
pick one, you dishonest bastard
The irony is that I have given as honest an answer to that question as you are ever likely to see.
Why must I pick one? I believe I am permitted to reject the man/woman binary if I so desire.
SubJeff on 9/7/2020 at 19:48
Yeah june, you said you go by the pronouns they/them. Nah. He or she. Pick one.
june gloom on 9/7/2020 at 19:49
Quote Posted by SD
The irony is that I have given as honest an answer to that question as you are ever likely to see.
Why must I pick one? I believe I am permitted to reject the man/woman binary if I so desire.
horseshit. you don't get to skate by via inventing a whole new category of gender so you can deny trans women their identity just because you're obsessed with penis
tell us what you
really think, in as few words as possible (so as to prevent burying it in your usual bloviating) because this whole exercise has been you making bad arguments then when people respond to what you say you yell at them for getting it wrong
so stop pretending "trans" is a gender unto itself and answer the question, coward
Starker on 9/7/2020 at 19:51
Quote Posted by SD
Getting back to the wider topic of cancel culture, I see Jodie Comer, darling of the LGBT community for playing one of the most fascinating LGBT characters on television, has been cancelled - for dating a man who is a registered Republican.
Okay, so she's not a darling for some portion of her fans anymore (while many others have rallied to her defence, it seems). And? Has she been fired from anything? Does she suddenly not have a career anymore? Is her life completely destroyed? Has she been disowned by her family and friends?
More importantly, how is this any different from the myriad of other celebrity scandals where fans are displeased with something their idol says or does?
june gloom on 9/7/2020 at 19:54
Quote Posted by SubJeff
Yeah june, you said you go by the pronouns they/them. Nah. He or she. Pick one.
i wasn't asking you. this is the second time i've asked SD a question and you answered for him. let the man answer for himself.
but can you at least
pretend to be a little smarter? this isn't about me -- i've rejected gender
for myself, but that doesn't apply to others. the entire crux of this debate rests on whether or not trans women are women as they say they are, or if they are merely men who
believe they are women. not "trans" women, just women, period. that's what i'm asking SD.
june gloom on 9/7/2020 at 19:56
anyway, about SD's claims to being genderfluid: i say horseshit to that too.
genderfluid and gender non-conforming are two different things, SD, and if you consider yourself to be a straight man as you've said earlier then you by definition cannot be genderfluid. my partner is genderfluid (and a far better person than you, but that's neither here nor there) and would absolutely take exception to your self-labeling, not even because of the transphobic doggerel you've been spewing but because by your own admission you're something mutually exclusive with genderfluid
there's nothing wrong with being gender-nonconforming (and in fact i encourage it) but don't say you're something you're not then use that identity you're appropriating as cover for your own transphobia
how can you even hope to have any claim of understanding trans issues when you don't even understand the words
lowenz on 9/7/2020 at 20:03
Ehm, it's a discussion about "cancellation" as a mass orientation (sociopolitical) strategy in these strange and paradoxical "individual centered social media" times.
If you prefer it's a politically correct (inception :D ) noun for the good old "vengeance/revenge".
Sex/Gender (autoperception of / satisfaction of) is only tangential.
