SubJeff on 8/7/2020 at 08:11
Quote Posted by june gloom
y'all obsessed with other peoples' junk,
It's kind of the point though, isn't it?
If all trans women had had GRS the issue wouldn't exist in its current form, would it?
rachel on 8/7/2020 at 08:14
Quote Posted by SubJeff
As to trans women being women - I support identification as whatever you want. Identification isn't a magic incantation though - it won't remove penises, grant vaginae, nor remove cis-women's fears.
You still frame it as if it's a choice. If that's what you think, you are fundamentally wrong. People don't
choose to be trans. They
are.
And again, it's very telling that this entire discussion is still focused exclusively on MtF transgender persons. It's like the entire FtM and NB sides of it don't even exist in your world, guys.
SubJeff on 8/7/2020 at 08:17
I don't think it's a choice at all.
And the reason we're talking any MtF is because that's what cis-women are concerned about. That's the discussion.
We can talk about FtM too, but I'm not aware of similar concerns.
demagogue on 8/7/2020 at 08:31
The issue is a combination of higher testosterone levels is associated with greater aggression, and that aggression for heterosexual men is disproportionately oriented towards women. The two major observations you need to start with transgender women is that their testosterone levels are generally lower than men, but not as low as cis-women, and transgender women, like other women, are generally more attracted to men (more heterosexual than homosexual), but not at the same levels as cis-women.
The third element is that it's hard to imagine having a person's gender recognized is an indulgence. There's actually a long story to that issue in the social and policy history and gender politics of restrooms which someone that wants to have an opinion on this issue should read up on, e.g., all the gender discrimination cases on the number of bathrooms in venues, and of course one has to read up on why transgender are advocating for bathroom equality. (An idea worth thinking about, just to reject, is switching to low-T and high-T bathrooms if it were really T levels you cared about, but the gender politics of restrooms and validation is way too tangled to take that as realistic.)
Finally, the heart of the issue isn't about penises. It's about the cytoarchitechtonics of the bed and interstitial nuclei of the hypothalamus and about 50 other areas in circuits for sex-related behavior, where gender identity and phenomenology is constructed (protip: transgender people have the bed and interstitial nuclei of the gender they identify with, and these and connected areas modulate gendered experience, like the maternal instinct a woman feels towards her children and however many 1000s of other gendered experiences) and where issues involving rape and transgenderism intersect, that would quite literally take an 800 page textbook to explain the short version.
There are things to talk about, but you have a lot of reading to do, 100s and 100s of pages, before you're actually talking about anything approaching the social, political, and neurological reality of the issue.
june gloom on 8/7/2020 at 08:39
Quote Posted by SubJeff
It's kind of the point though, isn't it?
If all trans women had had GRS the issue wouldn't exist in its current form, would it?
y'all would still find a way to demonize and exclude trans women
because that's what always happens in situations like this
SubJeff on 8/7/2020 at 08:45
Not at all june, really not at all.
Consider that situation - would there be any issue to discuss of this type?
But let's be clear, I don't think anyone should have to undergo GRS to be considered the gender they feel they are.
rachel on 8/7/2020 at 08:47
Quote Posted by SubJeff
And the reason we're talking any MtF is because that's what cis-women are concerned about. That's the discussion.
It absolutely is relevant to the discussion, man. So you think this guy I posted earlier belongs in a ladies' restroom or changing room? You really think the cis-women you talk about will be comfortable seeing him there? After all, he was AFAB, so it's all right, right? No, of course it's not.
This is why the entire argument makes no sense.
SubJeff on 8/7/2020 at 09:05
What guy you posted earlier?
Did I miss a post?
demagogue on 8/7/2020 at 09:18
He's talking about this: (
https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150686&page=4&p=2452460&viewfull=1#post2452460)
If you're not going to be openly discriminating male vs. female transgender, then you have to demand transgender men stay in women's bathrooms. It's helping to expose the fact that most of the public debate on this issue has little to nothing to actually do with transgenderism and is an aspect of a larger gender politics debate happening in the culture that is really a separate issue altogether.
I've been thinking about making a video about how people should talk about policy issues. People need to put their emotions aside and recognize structural issues in the way societies work. There's always going to be a regular population of men that are born in the bodies of women, and women that are born in the bodies of men. There's already a level of existential body horror naturally involved with that even before society starts adding to the heap. And it's not a problem that's just going to go away one day.
As a society, the sustainable thing to do is allow people to express their gender with the least amount of trauma and social dislocation as possible. (Quick footnote: calling a M2F transgender person "born male" is actually a misnomer. They are born female in their gender experience, go down the list; they are only born with a male body. And vice versa.)
Allowing persons to go to the bathroom of their experienced gender is such a low-lying fruit to expect from a civilized society that it's a testament to how much misunderstanding there is that it's even up for debate.
...
Edit: If one wanted to boil the issue down, I'd start with this. "A transgender woman is born as a woman in the body of a man, and vice versa for transgender men." Do you agree with that statement or not? Then we can go from there.
SubJeff on 8/7/2020 at 09:40
Re: cancel culture.
I guess all these people are alt right shills?
