Sulphur on 8/7/2020 at 06:41
Quote Posted by SD
Again with the bathrooms straw man. It's really quite something that no matter how much I keep talking about safe spaces like refuges, changing rooms and prisons, you keep shifting it back to toilets. When literally nobody here has an issue with trans people using whichever toilet they want.
It's not a strawman when it's literally the first thing in this sentence from the essay:
Quote Posted by "J K Rowling"
'When you throw open the doors of bathrooms and changing rooms to any man who believes or feels he's a woman'
And that's fairly intolerant phrasing to begin with.
You say you're worried about men making safe spaces for women unsafe, but what you
actually seem to be saying is you're okay with invalidating the identities of people who identify themselves as trans as collateral damage. Let's give you the benefit of a doubt - if you've got a solution to this outside of discrimination, let's hear it.
june gloom on 8/7/2020 at 06:42
threads like this make me really glad i'm not cishet, imagine living in the world SD and subjeff and icemann do
SubJeff on 8/7/2020 at 06:44
No one is saying that though Sulphur.
SD on 8/7/2020 at 06:47
Quote Posted by june gloom
maybe you haven't figured this out but
a shocking majority of trans people are poor and cannot afford GRSyour entire argument isn't just transphobic ("trans women are men, especially if they have a penis, which i am absolutely obsessed with") it's classist
Sorry, you're just talking bollocks.
One of my colleagues in work came out as transgender a short while ago. I was one of the first people in the office she told, as it happens. The state pays for her hormone treatment. The state pays for her counselling. The state, who is also our employer, allows her all the time off she wants if she's feeling unwell (because transitioning takes a heavy toll on the body), and time off to attend therapy sessions. When the time is right, the state will also foot the bill for any surgery.
I'm sorry for you that you live in the only western country that doles out healthcare on ability to pay rather than medical need, but what is true for the United States is certainly not true here. No transgender person in the UK needs to suffer for lack of money.
SubJeff on 8/7/2020 at 06:47
Quote Posted by june gloom
threads like this make me really glad i'm not cishet, imagine living in the world SD and subjeff and icemann do
Err, I'm all for equal rights for all people dude.
That statement is actually hilariously discriminatory, like you think my cishet status is a bad thing. What next, my race? My religion? You're accusing me of being intolerant (which I'm not) whilst at the same time dissing all cishet people.
Good job.
june gloom on 8/7/2020 at 06:49
Quote Posted by SD
Sorry, you're just talking bollocks.
One of my colleagues in work came out as transgender a short while ago. I was one of the first people in the office she told, as it happens. The state pays for her hormone treatment. The state pays for her counselling. The state, who is also our employer, allows her all the time off she wants if she's feeling unwell (because transitioning takes a heavy toll on the body), and time off to attend therapy sessions. When the time is right, the state will also foot the bill for any surgery.
I'm sorry for you that you live in the only western country that doles out healthcare on ability to pay rather than medical need, but what is true for the United States is certainly not true here. No transgender person in the UK needs to suffer for lack of money.
and that makes your argument okay? that makes it not classist? that american trans women should be barred from living the life they want to live because they can't afford GRS and therefore aren't "real" trans women?
christ, boy
SubJeff on 8/7/2020 at 06:50
Quote Posted by SD
I'm sorry for you that you live in the only western country that doles out healthcare on ability to pay rather than medical need, but what is true for the United States is certainly not true here. No transgender person in the UK needs to suffer for lack of money.
Actually this might be why june has made this mistake. He (she?) may not have been aware of this fact here in the UK (where SD and I are).
I guess in the USA there IS a class aspect to this.
Would any of our European members like to chime in on the costs for GRS? And Sulphur, what's the situation there?
june gloom on 8/7/2020 at 06:52
Quote Posted by SubJeff
He (she?)
neither, i put the mayhem in the they/them, but "she" is fine too i guess if that helps your poor brain
SD on 8/7/2020 at 06:59
Quote Posted by Sulphur
It's not a strawman when it's literally the first thing in this sentence from the essay:
And that's fairly intolerant phrasing to begin with.
You say you're worried about men making safe spaces for women unsafe, but what you
actually seem to be saying is you're okay with invalidating the identities of people who identify themselves as trans as collateral damage. Let's give you the benefit of a doubt - if you've got a solution to this outside of discrimination, let's hear it.
Well, I'm not JK Rowling, so I don't feel the need to defend her precise phrasing, which I agree was clumsy. If people are going to attack me, I'd prefer it to be over things I've actually written rather than things other people have written.
I don't think there is a solution outside of discrimination. I'm more than happy for untransitioned transwomen to be treated like women 99.9% of the time. It's just that handful of safe spaces I'm uneasy with. I've said why I'm uneasy with it, I've given real-world examples that support my stance, and at no point have I attempted to invalidate anyone's identity.
We live in a world where abuse perpetrated by men against women is absolutely rife. Sue me if I place the highest priority on not making it any easier for that abuse to occur. If this hurts the feelings of a small minority of people, it's extremely regrettable, but unavoidable. Lop your meat and two veg off if it's that important to you to be allowed into women's changing rooms and prisons.
SD on 8/7/2020 at 07:01
Quote Posted by june gloom
and that makes your argument okay? that makes it not classist? that american trans women should be barred from living the life they want to live because they can't afford GRS and therefore aren't "real" trans women?
christ, boy
If you're asking me if I think transgender people in the United States should have their medical costs met by the state, it's a resounding yes.
But let's face it, transgender people are hardly the biggest victims of the lack of universal healthcare in our former colony.
