june gloom on 8/7/2020 at 06:17
it's honestly amazing that you think trans people just being able to live their lives is equivalent to "the state giving immigrants explosives"
like literally what is wrong with your brain, are you going to stand in front of every women's bathrooms and demand a strip search so you can make sure they have the "correct" anatomical configuration?
june gloom on 8/7/2020 at 06:18
why the fuck you so obsessed with genitals anyway
Briareos H on 8/7/2020 at 06:19
For me the question boils down to how many lives will be improved by accepting a group that is already one of the most vulnerable (due to daily bigotry and dysphoria) in spaces where they can be themselves Vs. how many lives will be improved by assuming malicious self-gendering by default when it comes to women spaces.
I don't know how to predict either but my anecdotal experience is that I know several transgender people and all of them have considered suicide at some point. I know women who have been sexually assaulted but as far as I know none was by a trans woman. Of course, it will and has happened. I'm just very doubtful about the actual numbers, and in doubt I'd rather take the option that will allow more people to actually feel validated.
Aja on 8/7/2020 at 06:30
Quote Posted by SD
This is utterly absurd, and especially the raising of intersex people, who by all accounts are fed up of being invoked in the trans debate.
I don't mean to conflate intersex and trans people, but you can see how this issue might overlap, and if you start trying to lay down the law about genitals and where they're permitted, you're just going to run into further problems and be forced to make more arbitrary decisions about who is allowed where.
Quote:
You only need a single black swan to disprove the notion that all swans are white.
No one is trying to disprove that it's not possible; I've said over and over throughout this thread that it's about it being a very slim possibility. You talk about balancing freedoms; well, I'm willing to weigh the freedom of trans people's acceptance in society against the very marginal possibility of someone abusing that freedom. Citing the one anomalous example (that every person who makes your argument cites) doesn't help your argument at all because it's not backed by statistical evidence.
Quote:
Now just remember - you're a bigot and a transphobe if you oppose putting people like Karen White into women's prisons with the most vulnerable women in our entire society.
No, you're a bigot and a transphobe if you refer to all trans women as "people like Karen White," which you just did.
SD on 8/7/2020 at 06:30
Quote Posted by june gloom
it's honestly amazing that you think trans people just being able to live their lives is equivalent to "the state giving immigrants explosives"
like literally what is wrong with your brain, are you going to stand in front of every women's bathrooms and demand a strip search so you can make sure they have the "correct" anatomical configuration?
Again with the bathrooms straw man. It's really quite something that no matter how much I keep talking about safe spaces like refuges, changing rooms and prisons, you keep shifting it back to toilets. When literally nobody here has an issue with trans people using whichever toilet they want.
My actual argument is really quite easy to grasp: the existence of transwomen who make no effort towards transition means that anyone in possession of a penis can self-identify into any area, rendering gatekeeping impossible. And I happen to think that to be a bad thing.
SubJeff on 8/7/2020 at 06:36
I'm all for trans people having their own safe spaces. I'm just not sure they should be the same safe spaces as women, especially if you make women uncomfortable.
We seem to be getting into the detail rather than looking at the bigger picture. There is a reason for male and female changing rooms isn't there, or are you all so liberal you think that's outdated and the women who like this set-up are all prudes or something?
And since you all like going into detail, for me the problem scenario is trans women, with cocks, going into female changing rooms and either purposely or not purposely exposing those cocks to women who do not wish to see them. It doesn't matter if the trans man is getting erect, flopping their cock around or otherwise trying to expose their genitals to these women (or girls for that matter), or if they are just going about their business getting changed to go swimming or whatever - what matters is the women feeling uncomfortable with that.
But fuck them I guess. No pun intended.
june gloom on 8/7/2020 at 06:36
Quote Posted by SD
the existence of transwomen who make no effort towards transition
maybe you haven't figured this out but
a shocking majority of trans people are poor and cannot afford GRSyour entire argument isn't just transphobic ("trans women are men, especially if they have a penis, which i am absolutely obsessed with") it's classist
SubJeff on 8/7/2020 at 06:39
I'm not sure if it's classist dethtoll, but aren't there trans people who don't want GRS anyway? It's not a requirement of "being trans" is it?
SD on 8/7/2020 at 06:39
Quote Posted by Aja
I don't mean to conflate intersex and trans people, but you can see how this issue might overlap, and if you start trying to lay down the law about genitals and where they're permitted, you're just going to run into further problems and be forced to make more arbitrary decisions about who is allowed where.
Really, because so far as I can see, our society has tolerated the existence of intersex people for thousands of years without any major issues.
Quote Posted by Aja
No one is trying to disprove that it's not possible; I've said over and over throughout this thread that it's about it being a very slim possibility. You talk about balancing freedoms; well, I'm willing to weigh the freedom of trans people's acceptance in society against the very marginal possibility of someone abusing that freedom. Citing the one anomalous example (that every person who makes your argument cites) doesn't help your argument at all because it's not backed by statistical evidence.
Actually there's more statistical evidence than you think ("(
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/seven-sex-attacks-in-womens-jails-by-transgender-convicts-cx9m8zqpg) Transgender prisoners are five times more likely to carry out sex attacks on inmates at women’s jails than other prisoners are, official figures show") but let's put that aside for a moment.
You talk about acceptance in society. But society accepts the existence of transpeople already. In this country we even pay for their treatment. What you're really demanding is that everyone believes whatever transpeople want everyone to believe about them in order to make them feel better. That's not going to happen, and in fact, if you're pinning your happiness on the approval of others, then you're setting yourself up for disappointment.
Quote Posted by Aja
No, you're a bigot and a transphobe if you refer to all trans women as "people like Karen White," which you just did.
I did no such thing. That is a vicious lie. When I wrote "people like Karen White" I was referring to "people like Karen White". Quite how you get from that to "all trans women" is bizarre.
june gloom on 8/7/2020 at 06:41
Quote Posted by SubJeff
I'm not sure if it's classist dethtoll, but aren't there trans people who don't want GRS anyway? It's not a requirement of "being trans" is it?
don't call me dethtoll, thanks
