faetal on 8/7/2020 at 00:47
Do people seriously believe that there are straight male rapists out there who are going to dress as women so that they can enter female spaces to commit rape?
Like, is this an actual thing which is occurring and that we are making effort to reverse, or are people just tilting at windmills?
Phatose on 8/7/2020 at 01:41
I don't get any of this bathroom debate.
Forget about trans or cis or whatever, if just a typical guy were to walk into a woman's bathroom to pee, would there be any chance of some poor lady getting a chance glance at his dick? Don't they go into stalls and close the door?
Hell, if you're a man, in the men's room, you're still not letting it all hang out. With absolutely no concerns about gender coming into play, we all manage to figure out you don't just let your dick out in the breeze. It would be incredibly rude, so we don't do it. Is something very different going on in the women's room?
I'm having real trouble imagining that there is anywhere out there a man, trans or otherwise, who would walk into a public bathroom and expose himself, who would actually be stopped from doing that by a law against trans people using a particular bathroom.
Renzatic on 8/7/2020 at 02:29
No one really knows what goes on at that Circle K off Hwy. 58 at 3AM, but other than that, I don't think it's much of a problem.
Jason Moyer on 8/7/2020 at 04:24
Quote Posted by faetal
Do people seriously believe that there are straight male rapists out there who are going to dress as women so that they can enter female spaces to commit rape?
I always assumed it was limited to people who fantasize about that constantly.
Sulphur on 8/7/2020 at 05:04
Quote Posted by faetal
Do people seriously believe that there are straight male rapists out there who are going to dress as women so that they can enter female spaces to commit rape?
This is literally what JK Rowling said in her spiel. It's pretty damn stupid because it passes an improbability as a highly real and present danger, and uses that to discriminate an entire minority. It's clearly shitty reasoning at best, and a sign of masked transphobia at worst.
SD on 8/7/2020 at 05:14
Quote Posted by heywood
SD,
I don't see dethy misrepresenting you. You quite literally said that penises are the source of danger.
Your concern about trans women assaulting cis women in bathrooms or changing rooms is the strawman.
No. No. No. No.
Not once have I said women are at particular risk of assault from transwomen. Why can't people just read what is written? Why do they have to make things up?
The concern is that if you allow self-identification, alone, to be the sole criterion for allowing someone with a dick into women's safe spaces, then you necessarily expose those women to increased risks and you make them feel uncomfortable.
Quote Posted by heywood
An even more absurd strawman is saying that "hetero men are called transphobic because they don't want to date a woman with a cock."
No, this is not a straw man, this is a fact. There are multiple examples of trans activists labelling hetero men and lesbians as transphobes if they don't want to date a transwoman. Here is one:
(
https://medium.com/@QSE/when-you-say-i-would-never-date-a-trans-person-its-transphobic-here-s-why-aa6fdcf59aca)
Here is another:
(
http://www.cambridgeblog.org/2019/06/who-will-date-a-trans-person/)
Here is a third. This one comes with a video.
(
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X-PgHSZh6U)
I could post more examples, but I don't need to. This is mainstream thinking now among trans activists.
Quote Posted by heywood
Now you're saying the idea of a woman seeing a dick is barking mad. Are you serious? That's Islamic State thinking.
I think it's a bit more than the idea of them seeing a dick, isn't it? You're talking about women and girls when they are at their most vulnerable, naked in a locker room, and telling them they must share that space with nude people with penises, perhaps even erections. You don't need to be Islamic State to see why they might just be ever so uncomfortable about that.
SD on 8/7/2020 at 05:29
Quote Posted by Aja
You may not intend it to be about that, but that is most certainly the result. You can't say you support trans rights while denying trans people the essence of their identity. Your position necessitates prejudice against trans people, and your justification for it, as dethtoll pointed out, doesn't even make sense because it relies on gender essentialism, which is demonstrably false. There's too much variety, too much of a spectrum of human sexuality to argue bluntly that if you have a penis, you're a man, end of story. What about intersex people? Should we have a genital-inspection committee to decide where they are and aren't allowed? And if you're going to reduce people's sexuality to whether or not they have a penis, then you'd really better not allow gay couples to adopt a child because two penises could potentially do twice as much molesting as one.
This is utterly absurd, and especially the raising of intersex people, who by all accounts are fed up of being invoked in the trans debate.
You say my position necessitates prejudice. But all freedoms that we enjoy need to be balanced against the freedoms of others. I freely admit that I would bar transwomen with penises from a handful of women-only safe spaces, because I consider the freedom of women and girls (including post-operative transwomen) to trump the freedom of transwomen who want to retain possession of their man bits.
Quote Posted by Aja
Like everyone else has said, anyone deranged enough to want to rape a woman doesn't need the cover of being trans to do so.
This is incredibly naive. Sex crimes, like other crimes, require means, motive and opportunity. It stands to reason that if you increase opportunity - say, by permitting people with penises free roam in spaces for vulnerable women - you run the risk of increasing the number of sex crimes.
Quote Posted by Aja
What's actually easy is for someone who is uncomfortable with or doesn't understand what it means to be trans to say that trans people can't be permitted to live the way that makes them feel whole because they're a potential threat to society.
Hold on now. As a man in possession of the tool which is a prerequisite for rape, I already accept that I am theoretically a threat to vulnerable women in their safe spaces. Why shouldn't anyone else with a penis have to accept they're a potential threat too?
Sulphur on 8/7/2020 at 05:37
Quote Posted by SD
This is incredibly naive. Sex crimes, like other crimes, require means, motive and opportunity. It stands to reason that if you increase opportunity - say, by permitting people with penises free roam in spaces for vulnerable women - you run the risk of increasing the number of sex crimes.
Let's examine this a little deeper. If this is
really increasing the opportunity for a man to saunter into a restroom as a woman, what's stopped a man from literally doing this at any point in history anyway? They put on a gender-conforming disguise and walk in.
You also seem to be misunderstanding the idea that rape is not about sex, it is about power. And a straight man dressing up as a woman to perpetrate a sex crime would be antithetical to that to begin with. Is it still a possibility? Yes. How possible is it? It's incredibly low to the point where marginalising an entire other section of the populace because of that is patently absurd.
SD on 8/7/2020 at 05:44
Quote Posted by faetal
Do people seriously believe that there are straight male rapists out there who are going to dress as women so that they can enter female spaces to commit rape?
Like, is this an actual thing which is occurring and that we are making effort to reverse, or are people just tilting at windmills?
This is an actual thing which is occurring.
(
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/karen-white-transgender-prisoner-jailed-life-sexual-assault-rape-a8579146.html)
Quote:
A transgender prisoner has been jailed for life after she admitted sexually assaulting two female inmates and previously raping two other women.
Leeds Crown Court heard Karen White, 52, was a “predator” who posed a danger to women and children.
White, who was born male but now identifies as a woman and is transitioning, was jailed for two counts of rape, two sexual assaults while being held on remand and one offence of wounding.
She used her “transgender persona” to put herself in contact with vulnerable women, the court heard.
White – described by Judge Christopher Batty as “highly manipulative” – has previous convictions for gross indecency involving children, indecent exposure, indecent assault, dishonesty and violence.
Judge Batty told her: “You represent a significant risk of serious harm to children, to women and to the general public.”
White must serve nine and a half years behind bars before she can be considered for parole.
Prosecutors said there was evidence to suggest her “approach to transitioning has been less than committed” and in fact designed to allow White access to vulnerable victims.
Now just remember - you're a bigot and a transphobe if you oppose putting people like Karen White into women's prisons with the most vulnerable women in our entire society. Because if Karen White says she's a woman, despite being a rapist in possession of a penis, who are we to argue?
june gloom on 8/7/2020 at 05:46
congratulations, you found the one trans woman predator, clearly that makes all trans women (oh, i'm sorry, "pre-op" transwomen, because you're obsessed with genitals) a threat to precious cis women
