Grubber on 14/7/2005 at 14:23
Im new to T3ED but i have some knowledge of radiant based mapping.
Now in radiant creating and manipulating brushes is easy and nice.
But now i have this damned builder-brush thing and im freaking out.
Half the time im busy with finding and moving that sucker. And then to just stretch the brush 1 unit i have to use vertex editing.
Also the face-drag-button doesnt work for me...
In radiant u could move the camera quick and easy in the 2d views. Now i must go to the 3d window or use the obsolete-align cameras option. Is there some other way?
Plz tell me im missing some critical knowledge to make brush editing easier.
Are there ppl out there that import there brushwork? ASE?
Ziemanskye on 14/7/2005 at 14:40
I appreciate your problem, if I don't fully understand it - I came to the unreal engine from Half-life, and Hammer, and changing over was a real pain. I never got my head around radiant, so go figure.
But moving the camera in the 2d views is the same as in the 3d view - except there's no rotation, obviously, so either mouse button to pan, both to zoom. If you mean moving the actual camera, move it in the 3d view, or just select it and move it like anything else - it's the eyeball with an arrow sticking out of it (though sometimes there's one that doesn't move, just find the one that changes the 3d view when moved). You can move anything in the 3d view too, just hold the Shift or control key as usual as you move it, and you can use the mouse buttons to move it around. Makes putting things on tables or against walls so much easier.
Also, makes things easier if you turn on the realtime previews - the little joystick on the bar above each viewport- means that when you move things they move in all the previewing windows at once, rather than just at the end of the action.
The builder brush is just a start point - it's quicker just to duplicate an already created and nearby brush, use the right click menu, or Ctrl+w to duplicate the current selection.
There is a stretch brush tool, but don't use it. The vertex tools is quicker, easier, and leads to less problems. Remember to use Ctrl+Alt+LMB to marquee select vertices and it goes so much quicker. Using the "Show large vertices" option on the viewports bar can help too.
The face-drag button I've genuinely never used. Vertices are easier, and I got into that habit back in WorldCraft. Probably wont work unless you build bsp though (blue cube on the top bar), because T3Ed is a bit assinine about that kind of thing.
And yes, you can import/export brushes, but again it's not something I've needed.
It's all easy enough, so long as you haven't used some other editor before, because you end up trying to use the systems from that editor in this one, and it gets very frustrating becaues things don't work the way you think they should.
Hope this helps.
Grubber on 14/7/2005 at 16:14
Thanks for the tips m8. The realtime preview is very nice.
I agree that changing editors/games is a really sad thing ;)
In radiant u were supposed to avoid substraction because "its evil". In T3ed substraction is life:) In radiant u just start building in the void, T3ed wants u to carve space out in the void first...
So now i guess i will go read some more about vertex editing and clipping. :grr:
I like to hear more "best practices" and stuff from all u experienced mappers plz.
Fingernail on 14/7/2005 at 16:38
I managed to learn DromEd quite well but UnrealEd never seemed to click with me, the interface just didn't do me any favours. I'm much more comfortable in Radiant, or DromEd. Just as I'm more comfortable in Lightwave over Maya. They're all capable of producing great levels, just depends how you like to work, really.
I find Radiant quicker, and there's no time lost waiting to calculate subtractions or what have you.
rujuro on 14/7/2005 at 18:30
WOW, comfortable in Lightwave over Maya?? That is interesting. I've never seen a interface I liked less than Lightwave, or one that I found more intuitive (once you get over the initial hump) than Maya.
Just goes to show it's all subjective.
Krypt on 14/7/2005 at 19:21
I like UnrealED a lot more than Radiant personally, which is unfortunate for me because I now use Radiant every day :p Subtractive geometry is so much easier than additive. If you make a building in Radiant and then decide later you want to create an interior for it you have to do a lot of planning to arrange the brushes in such a way to not mess up the exterior. In UnrealEd all you have to do is subtract out of it and the exterior is unaffected. Nice and simple.
You'll get used to the brush manipulation if you keep at it, Grubber. Once you get the hang of it you'll find it to be very powerful. The nicest thing is the rotation with pivots. That is my biggest annoyance with Radiant, that the rotation tool is pretty much worthless since it only pivots around the center of the object and it throws everything off the grid. I also find the camera in the 3d view in UnrealEd to be much more usable since you can move it and rotate it in small increments. It seems like you can only rotate the Radiant camera in 20 degree increments and move in 32 unit increments unless you move with the mouse, but that only moves along the XY plane anyway.
Renzatic on 14/7/2005 at 19:58
When it comes right down to it they both kinda suck...specially if you look at both objectively and see their strengths and weaknesses to each other.
The thing I like most about Ued is it's feature richness. Everything you need to import textures, script levels, or dive into the guts of the engine are right there in front of you. Id did try to Unrealize Radiant a bit with D3Rad, but it's still not nearly as intuitive...in the end it's just a level editor and requires you to go back and forth between programs, while Ued offers a complete suite of tools you need to do your thing.
And of course subtractive brushes are really appealing when it comes right down to it. When I designed my little Alien Swarm map, I had the whole thing blocked out within a few hours...probably in about a quarter of the amount of time it'd require me to do the same thing in Radiant. Why Id wants to stick with additive geometry only is beyond me.
But Ued sucks in comparison when it comes to brush and texture manipulation. I can change and align multiple surface textures with a single middle mouse click in Radiant, while in Ued it requires you to go through alot of clunky menus and other ackward actions. And brush manipulation....you can't even begin to compare the two, it's like apples vs. mud.
I personally think that a combination of the 2 would be the best editor you could use. Instead of having to fight with builder brushes and having to either guess exact sizes or go through the super slow vertex editing process to block out sizes, why don't they let you draw out proto brushes like you would in Radiant, then hit the add or subtract button to finalize your geometry in the engine. That'd be so much easier than what you have to go through now, and I'd enjoy playing with it alot more.
Fingernail on 14/7/2005 at 20:09
Best is to make the more detailed elements from static meshes, in both editors. Then just block out the rest of the geometry using simple shapes. However, simple (and smooth) curves and pipes are probably easier in Radiant than UnrealEd because of the patches. You'd need a static mesh for pipes in UnrealEd, I guess.
Grubber on 14/7/2005 at 21:35
aah! nice replies, me like this!
@Fingernail
I once did a 'build your first room tutorial' in dromed... i ran away crying.
@Renzatic
I would also really like to see a more of the 'good' radiant brush/texture manipulation stuff into T3ed. Would really be nice.
@Krypt
Yes the rotation is much better in Ued. In radiant i almost never use the 3d window to move the camera. I believe the 2d-camera snaps to the grid so if u lower the gridsize (or disable it) the camera will move much smoother. I use only 1 2d window. If the camera needs to go up/down or i need to edit from zx,zy i just do a quick ctrl-tab to change views.
@all
Plz explain why u guys find subtractive geometry easier than additive. In Krypts example i would say u can use the hollow function or because brush manipulation is so quick its easy to resize and copy 1 brush to create a building with interior.
What would u do in T3ed:
I created 2 rooms next to each other. 1 room is an outside area.
In this room i want a wall and above/behind the wall a skybox. So i extended the roof of the outside area and clipped that sucker in 2 parts. The upper part is ofcourse painted with the fake backdrop texture.
Now i want the lower part to be a wall and not a flat surface.
So what now? I start using meshes? I build another brush in the room to be the wall?
Also is there an option to select the next brush on the same plane?
(in radiant i can use alt-shift-lmb to keep selecting brushes)
Btw thx to the excellent tutorials i got the skybox working and managed so far :) Great work on those things ppl!
Orkin Man on 14/7/2005 at 21:39
The nicest two level editors I've used would have to be Hammer and JED (fan-made editor for the original Jedi Knight). Brush manipulation (well, they called 'em sectors in JED, but it's the same thing...sorta) is so smooth in both of those, and Hammer can be used almost 100% from the WASD/Mouse position. UnrealEd really needs some help in the brush manipulation department, it's way too dependant on vertex editing mode...
