Tocky on 15/2/2006 at 04:16
At the very least this is a step above shooting rock throwers. The longer we fatigue our men the greater that possibility becomes. They truely are between a rock and a hard place. All out war is easier, as awful as it is to say. This is an attrition of the heart.
The high ground is a mirage. However, if we leave with a stable majority rule government in place capable of defending itself against the violent elements, many of them foriegn insurgents, then mission accomplished. They will never love us, like us, or respect us. Sometimes I wonder if a Saddam is all they can understand and what they deserve. But damn it not all of them do. THAT is the only reason I can see for the invasion. It is a good one but it wears thinner the longer we stay. They have to decide for themselves if they want to fight for something worth having. We can't do it for them.
Swiss Mercenary on 15/2/2006 at 05:18
Quote Posted by TafferX
There is nothing moral about war. It's dirty business. I feel that war should be the absolute last resort.
Right, I see the flow of logic there. Unfortunately, Political... Heavyhandedness isn't going to go anywhere. And frankly, with the current track record, I think that it's blind to assume that war will be used as only a last resort in the forseeable future (Just as it was blind to assume so before).
If you see where I'm going, I'm saying that it has happened, and its going to keep happening. The "War's a last resort, so barbarism during it is OK" doesn't work when its so often used as anything but a last resort.
TafferX on 15/2/2006 at 05:28
You know, regardless of the "brutality" of my views, I agree with you wholeheartedly about war. It's not used as a last resort. The way things seem to me, the leaders with the biggest stick tell the rest of the world how they should act, and when the world doesn't do what they say, they swing the stick.
It's like they never left primary school, and these are the people determining who lives and dies on this hunk of rock we call home.
Honestly, I don't have a lot of hope for the human race. I see things getting worse every day. Presidents making bad decisions, Prime Ministers making bad decisions, World leaders...all of them, going down a road that I just can't see ever getting better. But what are we to do? Most of the time, I get so frustrated, all I can do is throw up my hands and resign myself to the fact that they will someday kill us all. Occasionally, I get the urge to make a difference, only to find that no one else could give two shits.:tsktsk:
Here endeth my rant. Happy Valentine's Day!
Enchantermon
Swiss Mercenary on 15/2/2006 at 05:36
Indifference's a nice place to visit, yeah.
Enchantermon
Malygris on 15/2/2006 at 07:49
We take men at a fairly young age, we put them through rigourous and in some ways brutal training, and in that training we teach them first and foremost how to kill. Then we put them in uniforms, arm them to the teeth, and send them off to the shittiest places in the world, where they'll be facing off against a population that hates them and wants nothing more than to see them dead or gone. And we also tell them that they won't be fighting a conventional enemy, with comparable weapons and uniforms and such; they'll be up against forces who blend with crowds, incite civilians against them, and set off bombs and traps to kill them from afar.
And then we act surprised when every now and then a few of these guys get hold of some poor dumb bastard and give him the business? The amazing thing is that it doesn't happen more often.
An army needs a lot of things to be effective, and one of those things it needs is a bit of a mean streak. People need to be afraid of it, just a little bit, and one great way of ensuring that is to remind them every now and then that if they step too far out of line, they might just end up getting their shit fucked up but good. People will still throw stones and burn cars and take potshots, you're never going to stop that, but maybe it'll give them something to think about the next time.
And don't kid yourself: we need men like that if we're going to go around invading and occupying countries. It's a dirty, ugly business, and we don't like to think about it or hear about it and we sure as hell don't want to see it, but the reality is that we need someone to do this dirty job for us. These are hard men in a bad situation, and they're doing a job not too many people are willing to do. The morality of the occupation is a different matter entirely; the fact is that these men are there, on the ground, and they're facing this shit every day. It doesn't excuse their actions (although the only thing they did really wrong is videotaping everything - when the hell will people learn?) but it shouldn't be too hard to understand them.
Martlet on 15/2/2006 at 18:41
However none of those attacked by British soldiers were uniformed members of a regular army, so they have no right to be treated as prisoners of war. The issue is not even about Islam, as protesters in Basra have tried to make out, it is about idiotic teenagers attacking a British base, and thinking that they were above the law. You have to take the viewpoint of the soldiers, and that is, as a fully trained soldier, trained how to use firearms, you then have to piss about with a load of idiotic 16 year olds who will then run off home to their mummys.
SD on 15/2/2006 at 18:46
Quote Posted by Martlet
However none of those attacked by British soldiers were uniformed members of a regular army, so they have no right to be treated as prisoners of war.
Inline Image:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/DannyClein/Smileys/v-thumb.gif(But seriously... since when did British soldiers in another country have the right to beat the natives?)
Martlet on 15/2/2006 at 20:38
That is of course true, but what I was trying to get across was that in Britain if there is a riot, people are generally tried for it, but in Iraq I doubt if anyone was tried for assault on British troops?
Anyway the violence was unjustifiable
L'elen on 16/2/2006 at 03:21
I'm gonna wade in here, since I feel I must post on this, even though I rarely post on stuff here anymore....
If you'll note my posting dates, you'll see I was absent from the boards here for a period of several years, where I was serving in HM Armed Forces. Here's a view from a standard forces personal (NCO or Officer), that's NOT in the infantry;
Atrocious behaviour like this only serves to reinstate enemy moral, destroy any hearts&minds campaign we wage, and precipitate general civilian unrest/violent behaviour. Moreover, it makes the British Armed Forces look like trained thugs and hooligans to the wider world, and in general makes our job 1000 times harder because some cannon-fodder moron can't keep his fists in check. The said morons to blame should be ruthlessly hunted down, hauled through a public trial, then sentenced to many years in Colchester (military prison). This kind of thing absolutely should and will not be tolerated in the Armed Forces of today.
Here's the standard view from a lot (not all) of our infantry forces (and I apologise for the following language):
"Ha-ha, fucking raghead camel-shaggin bastards had it fookin' coming; mess with us and we'll fookin' have yer! Alright?"
In time it will filter down to the somewhat intellectually challenged members of our infantry that you don't go around beating up unarmed civilians, no matter what they might have done. And even (in exceptional circumstances) if you do have to, you REALLY don't go around filming it whilst some northern-english moron with an IQ barely in single figures screams over the tape about how funny and cool it is.
No disrespect is intended to the good and intelligent members of our infantry who may read this (the less-intelligent ones will still be on the first sentence), who, based on my personal experience, will no doubt be shaking their heads at all this, and are probably in total agreement with me.
