Gray on 14/10/2019 at 19:29
Quote Posted by Nameless Voice
I was in Scotland recently and it seemed like a great place, much more progressive than England
Yes, and I'm saying that as a Scandinavian in Scotland. Granted, Scotland still has some catching up to do, but seems much more willing to do so than the very very conservative and slow moving English. I honestly find it quite difficult to understand how bloody conservative the English are, often directly against their very own interest. Voters in the midlands and northwest voted overwhelmingly Leave, as if they didn't understand that it'd mean the decline of their economy, and for many of them employer bankruptcy and their own unemployment. This was very obvious to me way before the referendum, why was it not to them? I blame it as a failure of the British education system. Too much of it is focused inwards, on Britain itself, as if that was the most important thing in the world, and not outwards, where the rest of the world actually is. This has always been a recurring theme in the British spirit, being an island nation, chest-pounding itself for its own greatness, fearing anything foreign as yet another invasion. I hate this level of narrow-mindedness and small thinking. We'd be so much better as a nation if we'd open up more.
Nameless Voice on 14/10/2019 at 22:44
The Irish have never been quite as bad as the Tories, but they somehow just keep electing one of same two mostly-the-same centre-right parties, it really feels like people just vote based on whoever they are familiar with or their family traditionally voted for rather than actually bothering to think about the agenda that the people they're voting for stand for.
I'd say that applies everywhere.
One of the biggest failings of democracy is that a lot of people just aren't informed or engaged enough to make good decisions.
Gray on 14/10/2019 at 22:47
Fair point, but I blame that more on Catholicism than anything else. The English don't even have that excuse.
Starker on 15/10/2019 at 00:35
Quote Posted by Gray
A union where the UK has strong and important voice, is seen as an equal, and has influence on how the EU operates. Granted, not as much influence as the UK would like, but still quite a bit.
From the point of the EU, the UK was seen as far from equal, especially in this century. It was seen as one of the big three powers, a country who had the most opt-outs and advantages of any of the members, basically amounting to an à la carte membership where the UK mostly got to pick what they liked. Not to mention that the UK had leveraged its EU membership in the rest of the world, offering a convenient and stable point of access to the EU and profiting mightily in the process (eg passporting rights).
Gray on 15/10/2019 at 00:38
Well, yes, the UK was slightly more than equal, but I didn't want to overstate my case. My point was that in the union that is the UK, Scotland has never been seen as an equal, and the English don't even seem to understand how this could be a problem, completely missing the irony there.
I attribute this to the delusions of grandeur and, :sigh:, again, post-imperial malaise. I can't seem to shake that term no matter how much I want to.
Honestly, the whole thing just makes me so angry I want to punch something. But I won't, I'm not a violent man, I'll just play some very loud KMFDM instead and shout very short words at Hugin and Munin to vent my frustration. The whole thing is a colossal mistake based on lies and propaganda. Ten years from now, when Brexit has happened, people who voted for it might finally have realised that they were played for fools and were mislead. A bit late.
[Edit]
I forget I didn't tell you. Hugin and Munin are my potted plants. They are now the unfortunate recipients of my foul language. They may get the verbal abuse, but also all that lovely CO2.
caffeinatedzombeh on 15/10/2019 at 18:59
Quote Posted by Gray
I think I may have finally figured out a Brexit thing. Let me explain it first and you can mock me later and point out the flaws in my reasoning.
I'll have a go, it's a very complicated subject though and I wouldn't say you're entirely wrong.
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A union where Scotland has apparently no influence whatsoever, and is largely ignored, and seen as the backwards peasant cousin of England.
This is, frankly, bollocks. If you think you have no influence look at what the result of the last however many you feel like looking at general election would have been without Scotland.
You could argue that everywhere that isn't London is seen as the backward peasant cousin of London and that's at least as true for any vaguely rural part of England as it is for any of Scotland.
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Scotland is 10% of the population of the UK.
8% of the population, 9% of members of parliament, 9.3% of government spending
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Nothing Scotland says is taken seriously in Westminster
Very little the SNP say is taken seriously anywhere because what they say is "everyone is mean to us, poor ignored Scotland" followed by blaming the English for everything, demanding more powers to not use, demanding another referendum on independence and generally acting in a way that very nearly makes other MPs looks like adults.
It's probably worth looking back at what they said in 2014 and asking whether you think anyone should care what they say when approximately none of it is true.
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No wonder Scotland is now tilting more towards independence.
Is it? Is there any actual evidence of that? (actual genuine question)
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I firmly blame the tory infighting and division for splitting up the country
Can't disagree with that, it's certainly been a significant contributor.
I'd lay the blame for a lot of the currently apparent division on (in no particular order) various governments who said they would offer a referendum on pretty much every EU treaty ever then promptly didn't. The utter lack of the faintest shred of truth on anything EU/EEC related coming out of anyone in the UK for the past 40 years regardless of whether they felt it was a good thing or not, anyone who has ever campaigned for a referendum on EU membership on the assumption that they'd be proven right about everyone thinking it's a great idea and probably most of all the last few prime ministers.
It turns out that I can't actually reply to anything you said without pretty much just moaning about the SNP. What they have to say makes me almost as angry as it makes you though, just for the opposite reason.
Gray on 15/10/2019 at 19:52
Fair point about the elections. But when it comes to Brexit, Scotland's needs have been both ignored and mocked by Westminister. Teresa May's deal, the whole backstop idea, while it might be the best option for Northern Ireland will inevitably mean that Scotland falls behind NI in matters where we try to export the same things to EU countries, such as fish or lamb. Boris himself has not once, but repeatedly openly mocked Scotland and how we're supposedly just complaining about being unfairly treated when we are in fact unfairly treated. This annoys me personally.
Everything else I said is to reflect the opinions of actual Scottish people I talk to. I myself am just a foreigner living here, so I can not possibly feel as strongly about this as they do, but trust me, discontent is breeding, and it's feeding into the SNP agenda. Maybe Scottish independence would be a great thing, maybe it would be terrible, I don't know, but the whole mismanaged Brexit process certainly makes it more likely to happen. I'm not a big fan of the SNP, and sometimes they do play the victim quite heavily, but that's not to say there isn't some truth in it.
And Brexit aside, many Scottish people feel we're being held back by the conservative, slow thinking of the English when we want to be more progressive, make more changes and more quickly, and this also feeds into the rising desire for independence. Again, as an outsider, I'm sort of mostly watching this from the bench, but this is what I'm seeing and hearing from the people around me. Granted, all I'm saying is anecdotal and not statistically significant, it's just whatever random individuals I meet, not a cross-section of Scottish society in general. I'm sure plenty of Scots will disagree with my assessment above.
caffeinatedzombeh on 15/10/2019 at 21:01
The only sort of person that May's deal really gave anything to were the angry xenophobic types who want an end to any freedom of movement, mostly because she's one of them. The bits I've read (skimmed a lot of it, read very little in detail) were some reasonably sensible stuff about ongoing financial obligations in both directions followed by a transitional arrangement (extendable to 2099) of not leaving whilst a permanent position of not leaving was negotiated with a fall back position in the event that no agreement could be reached of not leaving. It's bad for everyone regardless of where in the UK they live and ignores the needs of the people of Northern Ireland, Wales and England just as much as those of Scotland. It gives up the vast majority of the benefits of membership in exchange for none of the benefits of leaving.
As far as independence goes, you're looking at some of the same potential positives as brexit really as far as things like self determination go, you potentially have many of the same positives as far as greater control over things like trade but none of the stuff you'd need to do anything about it. You have the same negatives too but with 300 years of entanglement to sort out rather than 40.
Personally I've not seen any sort of plan for how it would work that isn't incoherent nonsense (see the last three years for why this is a bad idea) and no consistency among those who want it (see again the last three years)
The amount the hypothetical benefits are outweighed by the real costs (to borrow a phrase from earlier in the thread) is so much as to make brexit seem the most utterly sensible thing ever. I'm a long way away though so others may see more value in those benefits than I do.
Marecki on 16/10/2019 at 09:38
I agree with most of what you have said, Gray. I am not going to talk about this in detail though because frankly speaking, I have reached my breaking point. My own Brexit is now official, come early next year most of its direct consequences will no longer be my problem. I continue to wish the UK people all the best (even if it means some of them going their separate ways) but given recent remarks of serving government officials about how EU freedom of movement brings criminal element into the UK, it couldn't happen soon enough; I know when I am not welcome somewhere.
On a positive note, I do look forward to living once again in a place where you can rent something larger than a shoe box with terrible energy efficiency to live in without paying through the nose, where public transportation actually works and where you can actually see the motorway you are driving on at night without switching your high beams on.
lowenz on 16/10/2019 at 10:36
Quote Posted by Nameless Voice
It's really just the English.
The Scots voted against Brexit, the Northern Irish voted against Brexit, the Welsh mostly voted against Brexit (though the vote outcomes there were changed by a lot of old English people who retired to there and of course voted to Leave.)
I was in Scotland recently and it seemed like a great place, much more progressive than England or Ireland. I saw actual action on climate change there, especially in Edinburgh, with them boasting about how they'd replaced most of their buses with electric and low-emission ones and how much carbon footprint they'd reduced in the last few years.
It sounds like the Scottish would do a
much better job at governing than the English ever could.
:)