Starker on 5/4/2019 at 01:50
Quote Posted by heywood
The only option that brings things to a conclusion quickly is revoking Article 50 and remaining.
If only. It would be a way to escalate things quickly, though.
I don't think there is an easy option to end this on the table (or that there ever was, for that matter). The UK should have taken it seriously from the very start. Easiest deal in human history my ass.
Starker on 11/4/2019 at 06:46
And the UK gets an extension until 31 October, due to Macron vehemently being against a longer extension of one year, which was what the other EU leaders wanted. Surely it will be just smooth sailing from here on.
[video=youtube;Xi3aEGo8y-E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi3aEGo8y-E[/video]
Gryzemuis on 11/4/2019 at 09:13
Quote Posted by Starker
I don't think there is an easy option to end this on the table
Of course there is.
The voting is done wrong. You just have to use your brain. (Hard for politicians).
Another voting mechanism would have given a result in a week or so.
(Or maybe 2-3 weeks in case of an excessive number of proposals. Or you could speed up the first rounds of votes).
Step 1): Let everyone turn in their proposal. You might end up with 10 or 20 proposals. Lets call this number P.
Step 2): Have a vote. Everyone votes for their least preferred proposal out of P proposals.
Step 3): The least liked proposal is thrown out. There are now (P - 1) proposals.
Step 4): When (P == 1), we are done. Else:
Step 5): Continue with step 2.
When there are P proposals, this takes (P -1) steps.
The algorithm ends. Guaranteed. Consensus will be reached.
You might need a few more small rules. Like what to do in case of a tie-break in step 2).
With a lot of MPs, the chances for this to happen are low. But if it happens, e.g. you could throw out both least-liked proposals.
Take one day per step, to make sure everybody can make a proper selection of the remaining proposals.
The end result might not be the most liked proposal, but it will be the least un-liked proposal.
Is this so hard ?
I'm sure some people will have objections. Probably people who can't recite the multiplication table of 13.
Starker on 11/4/2019 at 09:52
It doesn't matter which option is chosen, none of them will be easy. There is no option that comes without its downsides or that will undo the damage or heal the divides. No option that I know of, at least.
ffox on 11/4/2019 at 15:23
I think one problem is that a considerable minority in the UK don't like foreigners. This is probably inherited - my parents and all my aunts and uncles disparaged anything foreign, as did nearly all of their generation.
(Foreign in this sense means anyone who is not white, or whose native language is not English. So a white Australian isn't foreign,
but a black Australian or a Latvian definitely is. Foreign immigrants must go. The EU is run by foreigners and so it is despicable, as are its laws, so we want out. )
These mostly middle-aged or old Brexiteers think that those who wish to remain in the EU are (to quote a post today in my ISP forum) "traitors, fifth-columnists and cowards".
I don't see any short-term solution to the problem if a lot of people think that way. We'll have to wait for them to shuffle off this mortal coil.
heywood on 11/4/2019 at 15:34
Quote Posted by Gryzemuis
Of course there is.
The voting is done wrong. You just have to use your brain. (Hard for politicians).
Another voting mechanism would have given a result in a week or so.
(Or maybe 2-3 weeks in case of an excessive number of proposals. Or you could speed up the first rounds of votes).
Step 1): Let everyone turn in their proposal. You might end up with 10 or 20 proposals. Lets call this number P.
Step 2): Have a vote. Everyone votes for their least preferred proposal out of P proposals.
Step 3): The least liked proposal is thrown out. There are now (P - 1) proposals.
Step 4): When (P == 1), we are done. Else:
Step 5): Continue with step 2.
When there are P proposals, this takes (P -1) steps.
The algorithm ends. Guaranteed. Consensus will be reached.
You might need a few more small rules. Like what to do in case of a tie-break in step 2).
With a lot of MPs, the chances for this to happen are low. But if it happens, e.g. you could throw out both least-liked proposals.
Take one day per step, to make sure everybody can make a proper selection of the remaining proposals.
The end result might not be the most liked proposal, but it will be the least un-liked proposal.
Is this so hard ?
I'm sure some people will have objections. Probably people who can't recite the multiplication table of 13.
Let's say you get 10 different Brexit proposals on the table along with the remain option. If you polled all the MPs about their preferred option, a plurality would support remaining. But remaining would be the first option to be rejected by your voting scheme, because all of the MPs who want some form of Brexit would vote against it. The next option off the table would be leaving with no deal, followed by the harder Brexit proposals. The end result will be some form of soft Brexit, which is a result that few people seem to prefer. So why would MPs agree to such a voting scheme, knowing in advance that the overwhelming majority of them won't get their preferred outcome?
Suppose they go ahead with your plan anyway. What will happen when they need to pass legislation to enact the specifics of the proposal? You're back to needing a majority again, and you're stuck. That's the situation May found herself in, after following the path to the "least objectionable" compromise within her party. She struck a deal that avoided the biggest objections, but few were happy with it, and when it came time to enact the compromise, it was defeated.
The problem the UK faces is that there is no majority consensus on what they want their relationship with Europe to be. But a majority is required in Parliament to actually make changes happen, and a majority of public opinion is needed to stay the course through a multi-year transition period. There's no magic voting scheme that can fix that.
Pyrian on 11/4/2019 at 15:47
Hmm, yeah, setting aside whether any sort of "magic voting" can fix the issue at all, that solution does seem strictly inferior to ranked choice voting, in that it doesn't actually accomplish anything novel yet is easier to game.
Gryzemuis on 11/4/2019 at 17:03
If they want to find consensus, I'm sure they can agree on something. But if they don't want to make progress, then it's easy to act as if the whole situation is impossible.