SD on 21/3/2019 at 03:42
The worst thing that ever happened to David Cameron was winning the election in 2015. Suddenly he had an unexpected majority in his own right, and no junior partner to enable him to sideline his lunatic right-wing. If only the country hadn't punished the Lib Dems for providing five years of stable, effective government, none of this would be happening. It's an object lesson in the consequences of cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. And now we have a madwoman in charge and a hapless opposition leader who sits on his hands while the country is driven into the shit, just so he can win an election and implement his programme of disaster socialism.
It's a sodding mess, but Britain is well deserving of this international humiliation. Brexit has put a decisive end to the myth of British exceptionalism, almost as pernicious, and certainly longer-lived, than the American kind. The Britain that built the biggest empire in human history, unravelled the science of evolution and DNA, invented the telephone and the computer, and so much more besides - that Britain is long gone. Even if somehow our membership of the EU is rescued at the 11th hour, our image is tarnished forever.
Gray on 22/3/2019 at 01:45
I can't even put in to words how angry I am right now. Teresa May blames the parliament. Like she's not wasted three very valuable years, by making mistake, after mistake, after mistake.
It was a clear national crisis in 2016. It was obvious after her failed election that we would need a cross-party solution. She clearly rejected this. She has repeatedly, and stubbornly rejected any idea that was not hers. This might be misinterpreted as "strong and stable", as she kept robotically repeating, but it has been painfully clear that she does not listen to, or come to any sort of compromise with anyone about anything. Politics is about compromise! It's what's best for whoever elected you, and she's not been delivering any of that. Blinders on, headstrong into disaster. Not accepting any information that disagrees with her point of view.
Don't get me wrong. I clearly blame parliament too. ERG do not live up to its name. A bunch of rich, privileged posh poncy white guys who will not be affected in any way by the way it goes, except they will most likely end up much richer from a hard Brexit. Even if they lose money, they can afford to do it on principle, harking back to some imaginary idea of what the British Empire never was, but is a model in their minds, and they're rich enough to never have to actually worry about the consequences. The Labour opposition has been painfully bad at opposing. I have no faith in Corbyn, in fact I believe he'd fuck it up even more than May, and I'm a leftist liberal bastard who should agree with him on principle, except I can't.
Every single splintered faction in both the tories and labour have made this happen. Cameron foolishly triggered it, and it will be his legacy, probably more than fucking that pig.
What this has all proven to me, as a foreigner living in the UK is that British politicians are so vastly far apart, grossly incompetent, and largely do NOT understand how to work a system where one of two parties is not in the majority. Almost every other European country understands this, but Britain, it seems, does not. Compromise. Discuss. Deal. Do, you know, actual politics. Diplomacy. But no. Rees-Mogg posh twats. Corbynites. May-bots. None of them seem to understand what their job description is.
I am so SO angry. Angry over the blatant incompetence and inability to actually accomplish anything. Not that I've said that nine times before.
On the upside, today I got my "Settled Status" email. Curious now to see what happens first, May resigning or me deciding to move of my own free will.
SD on 22/3/2019 at 03:04
Probably the biggest reason our politicians are spectacularly bad at compromise is because they pretty much never need to. Elections on the continent are by proportional representation, so coalitions are the norm, whereas over here you can win a majority with 35% of the vote.
Your assessment of the situation is spot on, Gray, and of course I would hope you stay, but I well understand anyone running out of patience.
Gray on 22/3/2019 at 03:07
Yes, that was my point, but then I stopped to think about another failing political system. At least it's not as bad as the USA. Yet.
A two-party system is doomed to fail sooner or later. You need more voices to fully represent the people you're supposed to be working for.
demagogue on 22/3/2019 at 10:22
The NYTimes headline today:
Quote:
E.U. Approves Brexit Extension, but Chaotic Departure Still LoomsThe short extension was conditioned on Parliament's approving a withdrawal deal it has already rejected twice by decisive margins.
This reminded me of what Al said, that at this point it's just both sides wording things to pin the blame on the other side for what's apparently the inevitable breakdown at this point, at least by the looks of it.
It'd be great if one crisis story from 2019 turned out ok in the end. My expectations aren't very high, but just one nice turn of events... :sweat:
Starker on 22/3/2019 at 15:34
The EU doesn't have to play the blame game. It's all on the UK in the first place. It was the UK who wanted this and played political games that led to this. It's the UK who has constantly been vilifying the EU as some sort of a national sport. Who couldn't figure out what they actually wanted after the referendum or at any time since that. Who wanted things that were impossible for the EU to fulfil. Who delayed declaring article 50 for as long as possible, despite being warned multiple times that there was only limited time before the EU parliamentary elections. Who decided to run down the clock to the last minute possible. And now it's the UK who wants an extension despite still not knowing what it wants. There is no time to waffle about anymore. If the UK is not out by the middle of April, it needs to start preparing for the EU elections.
May blaming the MPs for the current situation takes the cake, though. Saying she's on the people's side... what a load of bollocks. Half the country never wanted to leave in the first place. And she didn't consult the opposition about the talks or include the parliament in any significant capacity. This part is all on her. And now the time is running out with no good options in sight. What a brilliant strategy.
Oh, and MPs are even less likely to support her deal now that she's thrown them under the bus. Just brilliant.
Gray on 22/3/2019 at 16:17
The EU has had more patience than can be required. This shitstorm is entirely made in the UK, by itself, towards itself. The UK has always had an uneasy stance towards the rest of Europe, being an island invaded rather a lot, and now all these old stupid and pointless fears have surfaced to make the UK kick itself not only in the nuts, but also somehow in its own head. The stupidity and incompetence angers me to no end.
heywood on 22/3/2019 at 18:01
At least your government seems to be comparatively free from corruption and your PM isn't a dictator friendly idiot who puts his foot in his mouth all the time.
The gridlock problem we have here is a bit different. Our system is inherently resistant to change by design. I'm referring to the branches of government and their separate powers and election timetables, along with the high bar for changing the Constitution.
Brexit seems difficult because it cuts across party lines.
Going back to 2015, David Cameron obviously deserves a lot of blame for making an election promise he didn't expect to keep, judging the risk on opinion polls that turned out to be wrong.
But let's not forget Ed Miliband. He stole the party from his heir-apparent brother, made a mess of it, changed Labour leadership voting which enabled the left populists and trades unions to take over, and blew an election. Thanks to Ed's voting rules, now you have Labour led by a life long Euroskeptic, who undermined Labour participation in the remain campaign, and whipped his MPs to vote to authorize Article 50. If there were a snap election today and Labour won, it would immediately expose the division between their leaders and MPs over Europe.
It was a big mistake to rush into that Article 50 declaration without first developing a negotiating position with majority support in Parliament. I suppose people thought that 2 years was ample time to negotiate. But in hindsight, it seems hopelessly optimistic when you consider how many different negotiations and treaties it took over decades of time to get where we are now, and how long it has taken other countries to negotiate trade deals with the EU.
So assuming the vote next week fails again. What are May's options?
1. Revoke Article 50. Can May do this without facing a leadership challenge and being forced to step down?
2. Ask for a long delay to Brexit and go ahead with European Parliament elections in two months. It would be odd to campaign for seats in a Parliament you're planning to pull out of, but it's a hedge. Would the EU members be OK with this?
3. No deal.
Has anybody talked about a temporary deal with a sunset?
Gray on 22/3/2019 at 18:15
I genuinely hope that Article 50 will be revoked, perhaps through another referendum, but I do not believe that will happen. That's just the stupid optimist in me.
The bitter cynic in me fully expects this to drag on until it unravels even further. And even if there is a second referendum, the general spirit of the country seems to completely lack the understanding of the severity of the situation and just want to "get on with it", rather jumping into the abyss as opposed to stop and think whether it's a good idea or not.
WingedKagouti on 22/3/2019 at 18:23
Quote Posted by heywood
2. Ask for a long delay to Brexit and go ahead with European Parliament elections in two months. It would be odd to campaign for seats in a Parliament you're planning to pull out of, but it's a hedge. Would the EU members be OK with this?
I'm not entirely certain, but from the sounds of it I don't think the EU would let this happen unless she has a specific plan that has a good chance of success of going through parliament and/or a referendum.